AKG K701/2, K712 and Beyerdynamic DT990 gaming comparison.

[EsaT]

Having recently managed to get couple years old second hand K702s and then buying also K712 to go along with my DT990 thought would be good to make some comparison on how they work with binaural sound.
(+ my tape keeping pieces from falling HD595 Sennheiser)


So after about ten hours spent in comparing them two with various binaural sound game videos (for proper repeatability) of mostly FPS games results are these.
But first quick intro for those who've spent their time looking gaming branded Chinese trinket marketing and listening bad excuse of sound:

DT990 is Beyerdynamic's three decades old take on open big soundstage headphone, with fun very good for open headphone bass impact.

K702 is detachable cable version of AKG's fair decade old K701, aimed at highly analytical sound with big soundstage and neutral bass.

K712 is few years old model aimed at DT990 like more "balanced"/fun sound adding above neutral punching fun bass to K700 line.

AKG K701/702:​

Hands down the winner for competitiviness.
Bass neutral highly analytical sound combined to really big soundstage with lots of separation makes these "wall hack" for distinguishing foot steps, gunshots and such sounds about what other players are doing.
(while very good HD595 falls clearly behind in soundstage)
Downside is compromising in "fun factor".
Bass is there and actually goes pretty low if you listen for it, but it always takes the back seat to details and just doesn't punch much, unless really asked by source signal.
(though going deeper than in HD595)

If you want the highest level of competitiveness with their current pricing these are steal.

AKG K712:​

Soundstage feels overal very similar to K702 with huge size and lots of separation.
Difference feels to come mostly from that fan bass:
When ever there are lower frequency sounds present foot steps and such are simply not so obvious.
That some compromising in competitiveness gives lot back in "fun factor".
Instead of being "shy"/taking always back seat bass is overall well present giving good immersion and punch.

Overal excellent balancing for gaming with very good immersion/fun, without giving up that much from competitiveness.

Beyerdynamic DT990:​

Soundstage is big with good separation, but simply step behind from AKG huge.
(about level of HD595)
Likely because more "intimate" soundstage and flatter response between 1-4 kHz occasional sound felt easier to distinguish than with K712.
So overal not up to K712 level, but it still does very well with its notch smaller soundstage.
Also fun factor is definitely its strength.
While K712 should reach lower, DT990 feels to have little more bass impact.
With difference likely coming from K712 having more mids and bigger more airy soundstage.

Despite of its age very well balanced and excellent for fun gaming, while doing also very well in competitive gaming.
Especially Pro version gives lots of "bang per buck", with some possible inconveniencies from differences to Premium.

Comfort:​

Overall all three are fit for hours and hours of continuous use.
AKGs have more firmer feeling bads and at first gave clearly more feel of wearing them, but now with more time using don't really notice them anymore.
Though with its very soft pads DT990 Premium still has some edge.

Also Beyer's head band with very good manual adjusting is likely better for more peculiar head shapes/sizes.
AKG's headband with its "automatic" adjusting also relies on some pressure to keep cups positioned.

DT990 Pro meant for studio has coiled cable, which can cause some inconvenience/need for extension cable if headphone output isn't near you.
(though not that 3m long straight cable is always easy)
Also it has more clamping force than Premium, so for longer listening comfort likely isn't as good. Though with steel inside head band it shouldn't mind if you bent it little.

 

[EsaT]

Hmm, if I was to go for AKG K702 how would I combat a modmic picking up echos through Discord? Since it is open back wont they hear everything?

If sound leak becomes problem you would have even bigger problem in serious hearing loss.
Keyboard sounds are noisier than any sound leak at hearing safe volumes.

Well, maybe except if attaching wrong end of modmic to headphones...

 

[EsaT]

How would these headphones work with the Auzentech X-Fi Prelude?

Considering Auzentech updated analog signal path components over standard X-Fi I don't expect problems.
With bass neutralizing CMSS-3D K712 should give some serious "aural wallhacking/god mode" for hearing where enemies are in fps games.

 

[EsaT]

Hmmm.... Reading on Amazon I’m seeing a lot of people complaining after a certain date the AKG 702’s are made in China. Do I risk or go for AKG712 Pro? I’ll purchase a set after the New Year along with modmic. Just not sure which yet since they’ll be used for fps gaming.

Though I’m leaning more towards the 712 Pro reading the comments.

Second hand K702 I got are likely made in AKG's factory in China.
K712s have Made in Slovakia sticker in one part of head band and earlier before move of Europe's assembly factory they had Made in Austria sticker in there.
And quality wise it really depends on how much QC is done...
With lot lower salary costs than in Europe they could even afford little longer QC/testing for same price in China.

Anyway even competitive gaming wise there really wouldn't be many headphones above K712.
And use of equalizer would easily neutralize bass to make foot steps and such sounds more obvious.
While for normal gaming K702's bass lacks in fun.
With CMSS-3D itself killing bass above neutral bass is actually needed for some fun/immersion.

 

[EsaT]

I'm interested in the AKG 712 PROs (mainly for music and games) as my K551s are falling apart.

I'm currently using on-board sound at the moment, I use to have an Essence STX but that stopped working over a year ago and I never got round to replacing it.

Is there any DAC/AMPs/Sound cards people would recommend for the AKG 712s? I've been looking at the Schiit stack (Magi / Modi) but its out of stock from the EU distributor until Jan 19th at least.

If you don't have noisy environment to isolate K712 is definitely well balanced for gaming with some more competitiviness as in DT990.
And above neutral bass should give good immersion for music.
You likely wouldn't like neutral bass after those closed cans.


There's sure lots of hype for "DACs" but for gaming those just suck.
Like it "says on the tin" digital-to-analog converters are "stupid" single purpose devices and lack features of sound cards.
Those don't even have any special parts available for them, but use same standard DAC chips. In fact many "DAC"s use lower quality DAC chips than higher end sound cards.

While only few closed cans have good soundstage for binaural sound K551 is likely good enough for decent immersion.
Just listen first from this time and then move to start. Should sound like from different game:
https://youtu.be/d1_20T8x_OI?t=12m55s
More "inside left ear - in center of head - in right ear" stereo suckyness in this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6ROujJ8Ae8
Or some binaural sound
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHhwUT4BYMk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iA0_6ZvhFo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGwvDmUwFcg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8xZp0WPwxs

Newish Sound BlasterX AE-5 would be overall at level of that Essense STX and actually better for low impedance headphones with very low output impedance.
https://www.overclockers.co.uk/crea...-5-black-rgb-gaming-sound-card-sc-104-cl.html
Very affordably priced Sound Blaster Z doesn't have as strong headphone output or low output impedance.
https://www.overclockers.co.uk/search?sSearch=sound+blaster+z

Though considering what kind output impedances some even very acknowledged by "audiophiles" headphone amplifiers have damping factor of fair 3 wouldn't be bad.
I mean Beyerdynamic A20 has 100 ohm output impedance in its specs while supposedly good for 32 ohm cans meaning ~0,3 damping factor...

 

[EsaT]

Hmm, think I’m swaying towards the K702 after seeing this... I don’t like his description on the K712 going for the consumer sound.

K712 has heavy bass only if comparison point is some ATH-AD700 with as much bass as tin can.
And soundstage definitely hasn't suffered really any from it.
Foot steps and such sounds just aren't so pronounced and forward pushed as in K702.

DT990 has little more bass feel and smaller soundstage than K712.
And even some famous for music HD650 would be lot behind DT990:

The DT990 destroys the HD650 in both depth and width. So how's the air within the soundstage? Well, the problem with the HD650, is that it's a very full sounding headphone. Thick, warm tone tends to make the soundstage seems less airy and smaller.
Positioning and soundstage tend to go hand in hand, so if the soundstage isn't great, the positional cues will suffer. How did the HD650 fare positional-wise? Well, they were good. Not great, and could obviously be better, but they do their job.​

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/mad...-11-10-2017-sennheiser-game-one-added.534479/

 

[EsaT]

I'm really keen to try one of the AKG offerings - had my 598's for a while but got the itch to try something new...

HD598 should be slight iteration of HD595
So soundstage at that second best level behind AKGs. (+ tin can bass ATH-AD700)
But neutral bass makes distinguishing foot steps and such easier than in DT990.

K701/702 are pretty much at same level with bass, but with step bigger soundstage.

K712 has basically same notch bigger soundstage, but because of fun bass in situations with explosions foot steps are little bit harder to distinguish.
Though overall fun bass and bigger soundstage are still nicer for immersion.

Watching some reviews on these HE400i's and they seem nutty for the price, I'm sure tempted to give them a try.

What I've read planars apparently have medium sized binaural soundstage.
So more aimed at that music enjoyment for ordinary music which can definitely benefit from more "intimate" sound...

How genuinely this feels like being in there scales with binaural soundstage:

 

[EsaT]

Reading through this, the idea of getting a K702 for the "most competitive edge" as possible intrigues me.

EsaT - you've helped me greatly in my previous query which prompted me to purchase the DT990's (which I still love!). If I were to get the K702's, would it be worth moving away from the Strix Soar to the Soundblaster Z for Creative's better surround software (if I've understood that well) and if so, would the Z be powerful enough to handle the K702's?

Haven't really found any videos with Asus Sonic Studio or at least in similar game.
There's vast differences between sound engines of games and if that source material is different in quality and style it makes comparing actual binaural simulation hard.
Just like trying to compare headphones without listening to same music.
Basically when trying to find videos with that Sonic Studio there's just marketing stuff and then Sonic Radar hype.
If Sonic Studio's binaural simulation works well would expect to have people uploading videos to Youtube.

D/A conversion wise SB Z and Strix Soar are at same level.
Strix Soar's TPA6120 is beefier than SB Z's headphone output, but beyond that it's harder to find data.
Strix Raid Pro which should be same card + external volume controller gave 100 ohm output impedance in this test similar to some earlier Xonars.
And while such output impedance wouldn't be problem with 250 ohm Beyers low impedance headphones would have seriously compromised damping factor.
Anyway SB Z is known to work with 250 ohm Beyers and K702 won't require that much voltage.

But with very little actual information from that Asus software hard to say what kind difference there would be between SB Z and Strix Soar.

That's good to know thanks think I'm going to give the 702's a try; would they be okay with my FiiO E10K?

That FiiO is better chan cheap USB sound cards so don't see why it wouldn't work.

 

[EsaT]

Voltage isn't the problem with the AKG K7** series it's current, and the SB Z is just about able to drive them - they will get plenty loud enough but don't sound as full as they should. Even though their input impedance is only 62 ohms, they are harder to drive than the 250 ohm Beyers. I changed from the SB Z to the STX with my K702s and there was a subtle but noticeable improvement in sound quality, mostly due to the more powerful amp which had considerably more headroom.

SB Z could indeed do with beefier headphone output.
Because of that often highish pricing of Zx has never made sense.
Maybe it's going to get refresh/update sometime now that AE-5 has market segment of top level DAC and beefy output covered.

 

[EsaT]

Have my eye on one of those glass tube amps...

That and playing Quake Champions and its sucky sound engine doesn’t help since it is my main game. It sounds crap compared to Doom 2016.

For binaural sound gaming non-neutrality of tubes likely isn't good.

Such shame that not all game delopers put much effort into sound engines of their games.
Having started PC gaming in 94 besides extreme graphics development also game sounds went lot forward in next ten years.
Then soon after that game sound development stalled badly and even took back steps.

Guess having some hybrid patchwork as game engine isn't helping even though they don't have console limitations...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quake_Champions
Or maybe someone purposely limited sound engine to not give major advantage to those with proper gaming audio setup?
There weren't much of those worries in age of original Quake...

 

[EsaT]

Yeah, I read they didn’t want too many sound queues to give an advantage. Sometimes people come up jump pads or come up behind you yet you cannot hear them. They just about appear out of nowhere. Even vertical sound is broken.
Yet they promote esports ready.

Damn infuriating though.

That's one of those cases when you don't know should you laugh or cry...

With such arbitrary sound behaviour of some sounds practically missing I might start looking if there's something wrong in PC.

In war games having sound come through someone else’s mic adds realism to the game for me. Don’t get that too often these days but I remember back in the COD1&2 days really enjoying hearing the background noise of a battle going on somewhere else.

And at least you know friend isn't just hiding in some corner etc...

 

[EsaT]

What should I get instead of altering the windows volume. As that is rather annoying doing it through the keyboard. As it would be better to reach out for a dial.

You have keyboard without dedicated media/volume controls?
Lots of keyboards are just overpriced for their lack/scarcity of real extra features.
It's very easy to adjust volume using dedicated volume control with fingers/hands never far from it.
With open headphones just haven't needed mute key to hear what someone is saying.

Though of course separate headphone amplifier would also do it.
Keyboard's volume control is just faster to reach than volume control of Objective2.
When comparing headphones used volume control of my two O2s to get same sound level for both cans then using keyboard's volume control when switching between videos.

 

[EsaT]

Are there any pros/cons for the K701 vs K702?

Also, what sound card are you using to drive these?

K701 is fixed cable version and should be little cheaper price.
K702 uses mini-XLR connector for cable like other high end AKGs. (+ comes with alternate coiled cable)
Besides obvious easier changing of cable it would also allow using V-moda Boompro Mic if wanting to add mic without separate cable like in ModMic.


Besides having good binaural simulation Sound Blaster Z would likely be enough for gaming use.
For high dynamic range music like classical music it might have occasional problem:
In such music average signal level is low and you'll adjust volume to keep that comfortable and then you have momentary transients with lot higher volume.
And despite of public hallucination of lower ohms being easier that applies only if headphones don't need much power.
When headphones again need above average amount of power lowish impedance means power is taken as current.
And just like for electric network delivering more power as higher current is demanding also for headphone output.
250 ohm Beyers are basically easier load because they draw little current. (assuming output has adequate voltage)

Sound BlasterX AE-5 again would have one of the best headphone outputs of any soundcard capable to driving any normal headphone.

For gaming you really want binaural simulation.
It rises this level headphones to entirely new immersion level.
While with garbage headphones signal doesn't matter because they output garbage anyway...

 

[EsaT]

Do you need to do anything to enable binaural simulation with the SbZ, is it the surround setting?

Apparently selecting headphones as output and SBX Pro Surround in Creative's software should automatically set Windows Playback device configuration to 5.1, but better to check that.
Software like games always defaults to that channel configuration (not many even having own settings) which tells them to produce 5.1/surround sound.

 

[EsaT]

I want a headphone that gives me whatever slight edge I can get in locating enemies in FPS games(PUBG). If the headphone can also be fun for other uses without sacrificing this, thats a plus. Comfort is the second most important as I tend to sweat a lot while wearing headphones, or feel pain on my ears from the pressure of the pads (Ive only owned non-audiophile headphones so far). This will be my first audiophile headphone and is likely to be followed by a dac/amp as needed.

After a lot of research I've narrowed my options to what I can afford(250EUR max) and what I can find in germany (the list is not in order of preference):
- HD 598
- K712
- K702
- AD900x
- AD700x
- Beyers (DT880/990? I never quite got the difference, also the different Ohm options drive me crazy).

All open headphones with fabric/velour pads are good for minimizing sweating.
While with leather/"pleather" pads closed headphones are exactly like ear muffs allowing no dissipation of heat through pads or headphone's cup.
More sound insulation basically also means more heat insulation.

Also cheaper headphones often have smaller ear pads making them even sit on ears, something what's called as "supra-aural" headphones.
Obviously some cheaper "circum-aural" headphones also have little budget sized ear pads.


AD700-serie basically lacks lower bass (x-model adds only little more) so better scratch that.
AD900 is better in that, but AKG K702 gives that bass at lot cheaper price having heck of price per performance ratio.
http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCo...]=3061&graphID[]=2661&graphID[]=2621&scale=30

HD595/8 are excellent but can't match that soundstage, so are notch behind in competitiveness, while having same neutral bass as K702.

AKG K712 has bigger soundstage but fun bass makes competitiveness little lower than HD595/8 because foot steps and such aren't so pronounced when there are lower frequencies around.
Though having equalizer profile with neutralized bass could likely give near top level competitiveness when needed.

From reading Mad Lust Envys guide you should have already scratched Beyer's DT880.
Technically better more neutral bass than in DT990 doesn't help when sound stage struggles.
DT990's sound stage is basically at level of HD595, so for competitiveness it's little below K712, though for fun fan factor it's little ahead.
But one thing where Beyer scores is head band with very good adjustment in it.
AKG's automatic adjustment might not work that well for all head shapes.



Also remember that likely hardly any game has proper binaural-simulation (with marketing focusing on graphics over anything else) so sound card with binaural simulation os lot surer than trusting games.
Fashion DACs as "stupid" single purpose devices don't give that.
Anyway lots of "Hifi" doesn't even have parts comparable to price.
Sound BlasterX AE-5 has top level D/A converter (what DAC means) and headphone output is one of the best of any sound cards and capable to driving any headphones without technical problem.

 

[EsaT]

The problem is that not every review he makes says anything about gaming/competitiviness.


In the end it all comes down to the AKG like I suspected. I'm still in doubt between the 2 as like you said, the bass from the K712 could make it harder for me to hear and locate footsteps/shots.
I was going to ask you about equalizing the K712 but you were quicker! Thank you!
How hard is it to drive those AKG? Everyone says they need amping, some people say a computer is enough. I got a "Z270 SLI PLUS" motherboard (https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/Z270-SLI-PLUS/Specification) with a Realtek ALC1220 Codec and a Asus Xonar DX (unfortunatelly not the DG).
Would I be able to drive it from one of these two options? If not, how much of an investment are we talking about to properly drive them?

Another headphone that got to my attention is the ATH-AD1000x. How would these compare to the AKGs for gaming? They are about the same price as the K712.
Unfortunatelly these are not shown on that website you liked with the graphs. I'd like to see how it compares to these other headphones.

Without knowing if testing was actually done with binaural sound that can leave results rather vague.
Binaural sound has specific and lot harder requirements than any stereo music and even notably higher price doesn't necessary mean better for gaming.
Actually music can even benefit from smaller sound stage.

Like famous for music Sennheiser HD650 with likely Dolby Headphone in Mad Lust Envy's guide:
Soundstage:
The front/back depth isn't great. Let's get that out of the way. The width is good, but not close to being the best. The DT990 destroys the HD650 in both depth and width. So how's the air within the soundstage? Well, the problem with the HD650, is that it's a very full sounding headphone. Thick, warm tone tends to make the soundstage seems less airy and smaller.
Positioning:
Positioning and soundstage tend to go hand in hand, so if the soundstage isn't great, the positional cues will suffer. How did the HD650 fare positional-wise? Well, they were good. Not great, and could obviously be better...
Clarity:
You need clarity for soundwhoring in competitive gaming...
I've heard better overall (even the 990's are better for soundwhoring). The problem is that the HD650 is a very thick sounding headphone. Basically, the issues I explained in the soundstage section is what hurts clarity for gaming purposes.

Same things which give it its intimate "front row" musicality hurts gaming badly.
So better to focus to known headphones.
First minute of this is excellent quick test for sound stage with gun shots from different directions and distances:

This was another I used in comparison:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8xZp0WPwxs
You can easily test any headphones you have with those.
There should be literal feel of space with sounds coming clearly from different distances...
Instead of everything coming from next to ear/in front of face with some sounds just being more muffled than others. (like in cheap closed design garbages)
AKG K702 is pretty much aural "god mode/wall hack".


That ALC1220 is definitely capable to meeting human ear's accuracy when clearly lower ALC889 (at level of budget sound cards) is pretty much there.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/high-end-pc-audio,3733-19.html

Realtek chips just lack proper binaural simulation and only some Gigabyte and MSI motherboards have bundled Creative's software set.
And hence would be stuck with what sound options games have (most games don't even have own sound settings) or Windows 10's Windows Sonic for Headphones which seems average.
Plain 2.0/stereo speaker mix is this sucky:
https://youtu.be/d1_20T8x_OI?t=12m56s
Though technical capability for driving headphones would be likely good enough even if MSI's marketing took little "artistic freedom".
With binaural-simulation from sound card game needs to only output standard 5.1/surround sound.

That Xonar DX is again weird card when Asus bundled Dolby Headphone (mediocre bass bloater) with it while 100 ohm output impedance makes it not so good for headphones.
While 250 ohm Beyers would be fine usual lowish ohm headphones would have rather bad (electric) damping factor.
And for some reason Asus seem to have that same lame output impedance in Strix Raid Pro and possibly Strix Soar.
While once again music might not care that hard, but for games you want good signal control of driver.


At the same time Creative has upped their game with Sound BlasterX AE-5 having all around excellent headphone output with near zero output impedance making it good fit for any headphone.

Very well priced Sound Blaster Z actually has very good D/A converter (that DAC) but headphone output is quite typical for sound card.
So adequency for AKGs isn't that certain.
At least for classical music with high dynamic range meaning lowish average signal level (used for setting volume) and then transients and moments with lot higher sound level demanding lot more power.
Though game sounds don't have such dynamic range, because it would be really annoying to play game, if you had ears almost ringing from gunshots once shooting match starts.
(or you wouldn't hear other game sounds if volume adjusted for gun shots)

AE-5 again doesn't have such questions.
It's certainly capable to driving basically any headphone loud and clear to make your hearing take course towards premature retirement.

 

[EsaT]

Hmm, I wonder... What it would be like hooking up my old Creative Audigy 2 ZS to the AKG K702? Or how it would hold up to todays cards...

Now that's old card. I think I had one.... uh fair dozen years ago.
In fact looks to be old enough for it to have only Win7 drivers from Creative.

It has likely normal for sound card Red Book compliant combined headphone/line out. So 2V rms max for low current draw and ~1V to low impedance.
For headphone gaming it likely has lacking features.
And software package is certainly horrible pile of multiple components with IIRC auto installed splash screens to Windows start-up.
Definite not good old times in that...

Budget level Audigy Fx certainly isn't worser while having lot better software.

 

[EsaT]

I'm considering new headphones, was going to go with the usual razer etc but saw these, but not sure if my AMD Asus croshair 6 will power these, it's go a supreme fx chip but the ohms thing confuses me, is it bigger number better sound but requires more power to run?

While its RC4580 output opamp isn't comparable to say Objective2 and is little below best sound cards these AKGs aren't some Hifiman HE-5, or god forbid HE-6 "ear speakers".

Headphone impedance tells only their AC resistance, not how much power they need.
Power need is down to efficiency.
Something not usually clearly told and often "obfuscated" by using dBs for 1V signal.
Which can mean quite a lot current and high power for low impedance headphones.

But these AKGs and Beyers are rather average in their efficiency.
250ohm Beyers just draw little current, but for example some mobile devices could lack adequate voltage to give good volume.
(250 ohm impedance just doesn't draw enough current/power from such voltage)
While AKGs don't need as much voltage, they draw more current being equally demanding to outputs.

 

[EsaT]

@EsaT thanks for the info it's helpful, I think I would be best with an external amp or dedicated soundcard

Don't think any sound card has headphone output at level of Objective2, which was designed for almost any headphone.
But AKGs (or 250 ohm Beyers) certainly don't need that level output.
Also sound card gives binaural simulation essential for good gaming immersion without needing to rely on what ever motherboard comes with or game itself.
(or then buying Dolby Atmos for Headphones in Win10)

Asus has also changed their sound cards to that Sonic Studio which comes with motherbaord, but can't really find good comparisons for it.
But that "Sonic Radar" is certainly PR BS. Even if headphones are garbage with bad directionality need to look some graphical overlay with delay from it would give opponent major advantage.

 

[EsaT]

One thing I am interested to know though is what you used to drive the headphones during your testing?

Objective2, or actually two of those for convenient side by side comparison.
(no need to swap connectors and try to match volume constantly)
Because some years ago when looking for way to connect two headphones to PC there just wasn't any real competition in technically good headphone amplifiers without paying arm and leg for what should be technically simple device.
Not that even expensive price always gets rid of lame output impedances and such...
So bought two DIY kits.

Sennheisers would actually have little more bass with some output impedance.
But using non-neutrally driven result isn't good for comparison and newer good sound cards have very low output impedances anyway.