Alfie Evans...

[Pez]

But you're putting parental wishes above the needs of the child there. That's like saying parents should be able to do what they like with their kids regardless of any laws, because parents know best.

The parents have parental responsibility, they are the child's guardian and in all other situations are responsible/accountable for the child's actions. While I absolutely agree that the state have a duty to protect children from harm/torture, the problem is that those definitions are subjective. I could argue that withholding food/medical treatment is equal to torture... we don't let a dog with a terminal illness suffer that way.

I also accept that the NHS should be able to stop providing free treatment at some point (although that could be open to some fairly scary legislation, i.e. who decides when) However, the patient should not be prevented from seeking paid for treatment elsewhere.

Just think about that statement "You are not allowed to seek treatment, we have decided that the best thing for you is to die" Would you accept that?

I actually can't read about this story anymore, simply thinking about it horrific, made 10x more real when you have a child.

For clarity, I have nothing but respect for all NHS staff, involved or otherwise.

 

[Minstadave]

They should just get the parents to sign a document stating they are going against advice of the hospital and will take responsiblity for whatever happens and then let then assist in whatever direction they want to go in (ie. hospital transfer), holding the kiddie hostage and wasting time in court when time is usually of the essence is too dictatorial/nanny state for me, not to mention a massive waste of NHS money/resources.

Nope not allowed to. Duty of care is to Alfie. You can’t take a child away from hospital and put them I the way of harm. Just as you have to protect a child from going home to be beaten you also have to protect them from inhuman further treatment.

 

[Minstadave]

The parents have parental responsibility, they are the child's guardian and in all other situations are responsible/accountable for the child's actions. While I absolutely agree that the state have a duty to protect children from harm/torture, the problem is that those definitions are subjective. I could argue that withholding food/medical treatment is equal to torture... we don't let a dog with a terminal illness suffer that way.

I also accept that the NHS should be able to stop providing free treatment at some point (although that could be open to some fairly scary legislation, i.e. who decides when) However, the patient should not be prevented from seeking paid for treatment elsewhere.

Just think about that statement "You are not allowed to seek treatment, we have decided that the best thing for you is to die" Would you accept that?

I actually can't read about this story anymore, simply thinking about it horrific, made 10x more real when you have a child.

For clarity, I have nothing but respect for all NHS staff, involved or otherwise.

Giving parents Carte Blanche to flog dying kids to the bitter end goes against the ethics and duties we have as Doctors and human beings. You have a basic human right to be protected from inhuman treatment. It would be far easier to take the oath of least resistance and allow this but it would be wrong for the children.

Both GOSH and Alder Hey have been through very high profile cases now to the detriment of their staff and reputations and I’ve a lot of respect to them for doing it.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

Giving parents Carte Blanche to flog dying kids to the bitter end goes against the ethics and duties we have as Doctors and human beings. You have a basic uman right to be protected from inhuman treatment. It would be far easier to take the oath of least resistance and allow this but it would be wrong for the children.

Both GOSH and Alder Hey have been through very high profile cases now to the detriment of their staff and reputations and I’ve a lot of respect to them for doing it.

Well said

 

[dowie]

they're still raising money on the Facebook page

they've still got cranks in the comments:



and every time there is an update about the courts the Alfies Army posters are in disbelief, "how can the ******** be so heartless, he's proved he's a fighter.." etc.. which seems to have partly stemmed from lots of disinformation from the parents along the lines of the medics supposedly saying he'd not last more than a few minutes and how he's proved all the doctors wrong now etc..etc..

 

[CREATIVE!11]

His dad is pushing it now, I could speak to the lads and he would be nailed in no time.

Am out as its getting stupid now. The retard is just in for the as said above the TV money. The sad ****.

Lol wutski?

 

[Pez]

Giving parents Carte Blanche to flog dying kids to the bitter end goes against the ethics and duties we have as Doctors and human beings. You have a basic human right to be protected from inhuman treatment. It would be far easier to take the oath of least resistance and allow this but it would be wrong for the children.

Both GOSH and Alder Hey have been through very high profile cases now to the detriment of their staff and reputations and I’ve a lot of respect to them for doing it.

I agree - However my question remains, 'Who' decides what constitutes inhuman treatment? Being told I can't take my son to a doctor that will treat my dying child certainly meets my trigger? And I'm pretty sure letting my child die slowly from asphyxia (through lack of o2 therapy/ventilation) or another mechanism as a result of his condition meets the same trigger, as opposed to a pain free euthanasia.

I'm not claiming to have all the answers, just point out that state having a say in life/death in almost any situation sits badly with me.

 

[dowie]

I agree - However my question remains, 'Who' decides what constitutes inhuman treatment? Being told I can't take my son to a doctor that will treat my dying child certainly meets my trigger? And I'm pretty sure letting my child die slowly from asphyxia (through lack of o2 therapy or ventilation) or another mechanism as a result of his condition meets the same trigger, as opposed to a pain free euthanasia.

They're not even claiming to treat him, they claim they just want to keep him alive for as long as possible now regardless of his state, because Catholic beliefs or something...

I think the idea in the current hospital is to let him die peacefully with as little pain as possible and that moving him, especially taking him on a flight, isn't going to do him any good in that context.

 

[Minstadave]

I agree - However my question remains, 'Who' decides what constitutes inhuman treatment? Being told I can't take my son to a doctor that will treat my dying child certainly meets my trigger? And I'm pretty sure letting my child die slowly from asphyxia (through lack of o2 therapy/ventilation) or another mechanism as a result of his condition meets the same trigger, as opposed to a pain free euthanasia.

I'm not claiming to have all the answers, just point out that state having a say in life/death in almost any situation sits badly with me.

If it’s not clear the court decides based on available evidence, parental wishes and expert opinion.

 

[Minstadave]

They're not even claiming to treat him, they claim they just want to keep him alive for as long as possible now regardless of his state, because Catholic beliefs or something...

I think the idea in the current hospital is to let him die peacefully with as little pain as possible and that moving him, especially taking him on a flight, isn't going to do him any good in that context.

Spot on. Moving any child having intensive care is difficult and risky. Moving them to simply prolong their dying is understandably not washing with the court.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

Having power taken away from you as a parent never sits well because in your head you would always pick what is best for the child. Reality is that parents simply dont always know best, as you say.

There have been cases in the past where parents have refuse proper treatment or insisted on improper treatment with the best of intentions.

My opinion, let the doctors decide the doctory stuff.

 

[Diddums]

His dad is pushing it now, I could speak to the lads and he would be nailed in no time.

Am out as its getting stupid now. The retard is just in for the as said above the TV money. The sad ****.

Bet you couldn't get a mac10 in 15 mins tho.

 

[solado]

When being on the dole 25 years makes you more qualified than a doctor.

Makes you think.

 

[terley]

There are many videos on youtube about how in America patients are kept on life support indefinitely, this is due to their insurance and a weird legal system that doesn't allow the hospital to over-ride what is best for a patient.

The UK has different laws, we do not artificially keep people alive like other countries do, I believe this is the correct way of doing things.

Alfie needs to be allowed to pass in peace..

 

[dowie]

There are many videos on youtube about how in America patients are kept on life support indefinitely, this is due to their insurance and a weird legal system that doesn't allow the hospital to over-ride what is best for a patient.

it likely stems from religious beliefs

ditto to Italy, the Pope has given his approval so the Italian military is happy to provide resources and an Italian hospital will step up... and of course they'll just keep the life support going indefinitely

 

[Tefal]

They should just get the parents to sign a document stating they are going against advice of the hospital and will take responsiblity for whatever happens and then let then assist in whatever direction they want to go in (ie. hospital transfer), holding the kiddie hostage and wasting time in court when time is usually of the essence is too dictatorial/nanny state for me, not to mention a massive waste of NHS money/resources.

And you've just killed every child who's parent's believe in "alternative medicine"....

The child is the patient the child rights are the only one that matters by opening that loop hole you let every crazy who wants to cure thier child' cancer with pot or thier liver failure with Apple cider vinear do as they wish

 

[dowie]

The child is the patient the child rights are the only one that matters by opening that loop hole you let every crazy who wants to cure thier child' cancer with pot or thier liver failure with Apple cider vinear do as they wish

^^^ this

You only need to see the screen shot on the previous page to see the sort of people that wouldn't potentially be trying to pull off this sort of stuff too... plenty of CT loonies out there who are into "Big Pharma" conspiracies, there is enough of an issue trying to get some people to vaccinate their kids.

 

[Tefal]

^^^ this

You only need to see the screen shot on the previous page to see the sort of people that wouldn't potentially be trying to pull off this sort of stuff too... plenty of CT loonies out there who are into "Big Pharma" conspiracies, there is enough of an issue trying to get some people to vaccinate their kids.

Yep, a glass of bloody spelling water will cure brain death!?


Alfie died a long time ago.

 

[itchy]

Bet you couldn't get a mac10 in 15 mins tho.

Dont do guns m8, a fist, bat and a bin bag usually sorts things.

 

[terley]

it likely stems from religious beliefs

ditto to Italy, the Pope has given his approval so the Italian military is happy to provide resources and an Italian hospital will step up... and of course, they'll just keep the life support going indefinitely

I'm unsure whether or not he would even qualify for Servizio Sanitario Nazionale, regardless it would be an incredibly expensive and idiotic thing to do to the poor child. It really bothers me how religiously idiotic many people from Liverpool are, being my home-city it is just demoralizing.