Am I asking too much?

[Skynet5]

I used to play FSX quite a bit. Last week I thought I would set up my system, yoke and rudder and get all my add-ons installed.

I have a JustFlight VFR pack of the UK. So I'm flying over the UK rather than just some generic textures.

Problem is the disks no longer work because they have some copy protection system that W10 no longer support due to security concerns - root kit!

Basically JustFlight opted to put DRM on the disks and now they don't work.

They replied to my request to replace them, saying it was "Microsoft's fault" and giving me a digital download (which they do on their site) would be "too expensive".

I have replied saying that it is not Microsoft's fault but theirs for opting to use DRM. And giving me a free digital download is the least they could do.

I have had the software for 6 years and it cost £35 I think.

But to buy it again as a DL is £60, as the UK is broken into 4 areas, and each is £15 currently


Am I being unreasonable?

 

[Jim99]

I think you are being a bit unreasonable.

When you bought the software, I presume it was designed for Vista / 7. It is Microsoft's fault in that what worked on Vista / 7 may not work on Windows 10.

If you want to play the game you can still do it on Vista / 7, i.e. what the game's original requirements were - that hasn't changed.

In much the same way, if you bought a PS2 game, which doesn't work on your PS3, you wouldn't expect the manufacturer to provide you with a port for the PS3. Or, indeed, a free copy of the edition they subsequently released for the new system. They can't support new and changing configurations indefinitely.

 

[Rroff]

Seems 50/50 to me but ultimately if they cared about their customers they'd do something about it even if it was just a (decent) discount for current disc holders.

In much the same way, if you bought a PS2 game, which doesn't work on your PS3, you wouldn't expect the manufacturer to provide you with a port for the PS3. Or, indeed, a free copy of the edition they subsequently released for the new system. They can't support new and changing configurations indefinitely.

I get what you are saying but if I bought a PS2 games and then a subsequent update for the PS2 broke compatibility with it I'd expect a fix - however on the flipside I don't expect a software developer to constantly keep updating older software for increasingly newer OSes indefinitely but I would expect them to do what they could to support older customers i.e. discounts for newer products where an appropriate replacement exists.

 

[Swifty55]

I think you are being a bit unreasonable.

When you bought the software, I presume it was designed for Vista / 7. It is Microsoft's fault in that what worked on Vista / 7 may not work on Windows 10.

If you want to play the game you can still do it on Vista / 7, i.e. what the game's original requirements were - that hasn't changed.

In much the same way, if you bought a PS2 game, which doesn't work on your PS3, you wouldn't expect the manufacturer to provide you with a port for the PS3. Or, indeed, a free copy of the edition they subsequently released for the new system. They can't support new and changing configurations indefinitely.

Eh? You can't compare a change of consoles to a change in windows software...

It seems they have a digital copy that works with Windows 10 and the disc version doesn't install due to DRM.

OP; I would have expected a patch or free download if you could prove purchase of discs, maybe ask them for a good will gesture of a discount to buy the digital?

 

[UberGinge]

It would be nice if they would provide you with some way of using the media that you paid for I suppose, but they aren't really under any form of obligation to do so. Have you tried running the thing in compatibility mode?

 

[peterwalkley]

If compatibility mode won't work, dual-boot to the old OS version that it does work off ? Pain in the rear but likely the only solution.

 

[Jim99]

I get what you are saying but if I bought a PS2 games and then a subsequent update for the PS2 broke compatibility with it I'd expect a fix - however on the flipside I don't expect a software developer to constantly keep updating older software for increasingly newer OSes indefinitely but I would expect them to do what they could to support older customers i.e. discounts for newer products where an appropriate replacement exists.

Right, but that would be different - if they said 'this is compatible with a PS2' and then it no longer was, then it's no longer meeting the specs they said it would. In this situation, they never said it was compatible with Windows 10.

I do agree that you'd expect them to make some effort to help, but I think that would only be on a best efforts / gesture of goodwill rather than an actual requirement.

Eh? You can't compare a change of consoles to a change in windows software...

It seems they have a digital copy that works with Windows 10 and the disc version doesn't install due to DRM.

OP; I would have expected a patch or free download if you could prove purchase of discs, maybe ask them for a good will gesture of a discount to buy the digital?

I don't see why not. They never said it would work on Windows 10. It still works on Windows 7 (I presume). So if you want to run it, run it on Windows 7. There's no requirement for firms to indefinitely support every release of Windows subsequent to the one they designed for.

 

[Moothead2]

The difference between old software like 90s games and this is that they have a Windows 10 compatible version available already. This is more akin to Sony updating the PS4 software and having your physical edition no longer work and be forced to buy it off the PS store.

Honestly OP, Davy Jones is calling your name and considering it's their DRM software causing the problem for genuine customers I'd lose no sleep at night if I were you.

 

[Skynet5]

Thanks for all your thoughts.

I get where some of you are coming from. But the console analogy doesn't work for me.

The software is fine, it is the DRM that the company chose to use which is basically a root kit with MS have decided to no longer allow. So THEY used the root kit and screwed THEIR CUSTOMER over.

I have replied back to the company with my strong stance on this.

They blamed MS, but clearly it is NOT their fault. This annoys me even more that they are trying to pass the buck for some stupid decision THEY made.

I would have expected a discount offered if they were not willing to press a few keys and grant me access to the digital download version. I offered to send them the discs back on my dime and email them my receipt too.


I will see what comes of it.

As an aside, they gave me a patch which involved copying DLLs, signing certain files as admin and unfortunately (the deal breaker) required me to disable Secure Boot.

I also suggested that they shouldn't even be giving this advice/patch out, nor blaming MS.

 

[Skynet5]

What if I bought this 1yr before Windows 10 came out?

When is reasonable for them to do something which really will cost them nothing.

 

[PooKer]

how does copying some dll files cause you issues with secure boot? if the dll files are signed....

At some point support has to end for DRM technologies. Personally I'd just throw in a spare hard drive and stick windows 7 on it. Once its setup you've then got away to play other old games with DRM. The world is becoming digital. Sucks you've only had the CD version for 6 years but if you had paid for the digital version and they then went bust with no way to download you'd be just as upset with no one to complain at.

 

[SkeeterUK]

Contact the DRM maker and tell them ur story and provide proof of items. They might send you a non DRM exe or something so it can bypass the protection. I've heard it been done before on another game iirc.

Also contacting CEO of companies sometimes gets better results if u can find a email for said company.

 

[npjnpj]

This is nothing new. Lots of older Windows games don't run on the more recent OS versions any more. I would think we've all got some lying around somewhere. It's always been a problem. It's annoying, but that's just the way it is.

There are workarounds with dual boot systems or virtual partitions, it's mainly just a question of investing some work and effort. You have to decided for yourself if you want to invest that.

After all, how far back can you reasonably expect support to go, be it for the SW itself or some DRM?

 

[tommybhoy]

Dual boot W10 with W7, simples.

 

[Swifty55]

The whole issue is that Windows 10 does not contain the SECDRV.SYS, which is needed for CD's that uses secure rom.

Now, there is a way to tackle this issue, which requires downloading the required SECDRV.SYS file, enabling test mode within Windows 10 and signing the file. This will then allow you install and run the required software.

It's the same principle as that it was when upping the USB polling rate within Windows 7.

Perfectly harmless.

 

[kaku]

Seems a bit tight-fisted given the cost for a company to provide a key for an existing download version is practically zero.

Still, it swings both ways and at £35 for 6 years' enjoyment it's not exactly like you've not had your money's worth.

Given that FSX addons are akin to mods it might be possible to extract the InstallShield CAB files on the discs and just copy the files over that way?

 

[Moothead2]

This is nothing new. Lots of older Windows games don't run on the more recent OS versions any more. I would think we've all got some lying around somewhere. It's always been a problem. It's annoying, but that's just the way it is.

There are workarounds with dual boot systems or virtual partitions, it's mainly just a question of investing some work and effort. You have to decided for yourself if you want to invest that.

After all, how far back can you reasonably expect support to go, be it for the SW itself or some DRM?

Difference being one is due to vastly different hardware and software and the other is due to ****** DRM that shouldn't be there in the first place and does nothing but harm genuine customers (and maybe make pirates wait until 3 days before release to play the game rather than a full week).

 

[Sin_Chase]

It's not Microsofts fault, it's not the game developers fault either.

The software was designed prior to Windows 10. Whilst some support/updates would be the right thing to do, they are not obliged to either.

I'd say 'source' it elsewhere, you paid/own it - certainly no moral issues as far as I can see.

 

[npjnpj]

@Moothead2: I agree, but compatability problems apply equally to both, regardless of whether they're DRM (as in this case) or not.

 

[Jim99]

Thanks for all your thoughts.

I get where some of you are coming from. But the console analogy doesn't work for me.

The software is fine, it is the DRM that the company chose to use which is basically a root kit with MS have decided to no longer allow. So THEY used the root kit and screwed THEIR CUSTOMER over.

I have replied back to the company with my strong stance on this.

They blamed MS, but clearly it is NOT their fault. This annoys me even more that they are trying to pass the buck for some stupid decision THEY made.

I would have expected a discount offered if they were not willing to press a few keys and grant me access to the digital download version. I offered to send them the discs back on my dime and email them my receipt too.


I will see what comes of it.

As an aside, they gave me a patch which involved copying DLLs, signing certain files as admin and unfortunately (the deal breaker) required me to disable Secure Boot.

I also suggested that they shouldn't even be giving this advice/patch out, nor blaming MS.

I understand what you're saying, but I see it as an emotional response above all - in that most of us dislike DRM, and most of us despise rootkit-esque DRM. So when that's what gets in the way of software running, it's infuriating. If we strip that out of the equation, it becomes the question 'if the game is designed for W7, it should also work on W10' and I'm not convinced by that argument. I can see that it becomes even more frustrating because they have actually re-released it to work on W10, but again that will have taken up dev time etc, and whilst it's debatable whether it ought to be given out for free to buyers of the old version, I don't think you could argue that it's a requirement for them to do so.

What I haven't quite understood yet is why you don't just run it on W7, say via dual-boot?