Am I liable to pay a fine

bsoltan · 18 Nov 2017 at 14:30

That sounds like a really annoying way to manage a car park. I'd much prefer it to just be pay and display with a refund at checkout but most likely that doesn't result in as many fines.
I'm so pleased that around here all supermarket carparks are free for 2hrs while shopping without having to register/login/tell anyone.
If a store carpark introduced this I'd stop shopping there.

SexyGreyFox · 18 Nov 2017 at 14:40

dowie said:
anyway this is simple to resolve - the OP just needs to ignore the posters telling him to ignore the letter and simply send them a copy of his receipt - he should find the charge will go away and he can get on with his life

Somebody may take notice of you eventually

Uther · 18 Nov 2017 at 14:43

Orionaut said:
They have ANPR cameras in the car parks. There is a machine in store where you enter your reg no and a number from your receipt.

The 10 minute rule is so that drivers can drop people off/collect them but you cant stay more than 10 minutes without charge unless you actually buy something and go through this procedure.

Ah ok, never come across that here.

£15 · 18 Nov 2017 at 14:59

Hotwired said:
Well it's in their interests to get a ruling since a ruling makes an unclear area solid law.

Until they decide to change how they interpret it. The effect of which all too often disproportionally effects the poorer in society. £85 may be 5 minutes work for a Lord in a supreme court, but it's a weeks food for some families.

He said: ‘Until today, charges which had been agreed in advance, payable on breach of contract, were disallowed as unlawful penalties unless they could be justified as a genuine pre-estimate of loss. Today’s judgment sweeps away that rule and says that deterrent charges will be allowed if there is some commercial justification for them.’

Who'd o' thought? The business of making money trumps everything, including any concept of right or wrong. :mad:

muon · 18 Nov 2017 at 15:14

The Beavis case simply says that you cannot defend againmst a charge on the basis that the size of the charge is not justified. In this case an £85 was deemed okay, and more generally charges up to £100 are acceptable within the BPA Code of Conduct. There are dozens of other ways to contest a charge.

For example, the Beavis case notes things like the driver got 2 hours free parking by agreeing to the contract and so it was acceptable to say that the driver did indeed accept the terms of the contract. A contract which was very prominently displayed in this case.

This does not necessarily apply in the OPs case. The OP assumed that customers have free parking at the store and accepted parking there on that basis. Unless the T&C were so prominently displayed that the OP deliberately parked there knowing that they would get a £90 charge, that contract has no basis.

Like I said, go to the link provided and there will be a dozen further points on which the charge can potentially be disputed.

Rannoch · 18 Nov 2017 at 15:18

Binned loads of them and also 23 illegal notices from Edinburgh council. Sheriff officers came to my door and still haven’t paid. That was 7 years ago.

muon · 18 Nov 2017 at 15:19

Vargas said:
Binned loads of them and also 23 illegal notices from Edinburgh council. Sheriff officers came to my door and still haven’t paid. That was 7 years ago.

The fact that sheriff officers showed up should tell you they weren't illegal.

Council parking tickets are backed by law (at least in England). They are not breach of contract based charges.

Rannoch · 18 Nov 2017 at 15:22

muon said:
The fact that sheriff officers showed up should tell you they weren't illegal.

The 23 were illegal but the liars at the council didn’t agree.

Faustus · 18 Nov 2017 at 15:22

lunar said:
I was at a well known food store last week. I parked at the store car park and walked to the store with my young children. It takes a few minutes to reach the store. I returned to the car after 22 minutes.
Today I received a fine of £90 from a parking company stating that I overstayed the parking time allowed, which is 10 minutes.
I have appealed.
Should I have just paid up?

Legally you are bound to pay up, so the answer is yes. There was a case on 'can't pay we'll take it away' only a couple of weeks ago. Chap in Wales looked on the Internet and 'mates down pub' who all confirmed they can't enforce it - well they can and they did. It's an urban myth that it can't be enforced, it's simply a different section of legislation.

I think this chap ignored a smaller fine than yours. Next news it was transferred to the High Court, bailiffs tipped up and that very small fine was now in the region of £2,500. Chap was nearly in tears and the family had to go begging to settle the fine/invoice.

muon · 18 Nov 2017 at 15:25

Vargas said:
The 23 were illegal but the liars at the council didn’t agree.

Then why did you not go to court and win?

Even councils have to win a judgement at court before they can enforce.

muon · 18 Nov 2017 at 15:27

Faustus said:
Legally you are bound to pay up, so the answer is yes. There was a case on 'can't pay we'll take it away' only a couple of weeks ago. Chap in Wales looked on the Internet and 'mates down pub' who all confirmed they can't enforce it - well they can and they did. It's an urban myth that it can't be enforced, it's simply a different section of legislation.

I think this chap ignored a smaller fine than yours. Next news it was transferred to the High Court, bailiffs tipped up and that very small fine was now in the region of £2,500. Chap was nearly in tears and the family had to go begging to settle the fine/invoice.

I suggest you don't make comments like this. This is completely wrong.

I would hazard a guess what you saw was a council enforced penalty notice. Not even close to the OPs case.

Faustus · 18 Nov 2017 at 15:28

NVP said:
Haha, nah honestly just ignore it. I've thrown away more than my fair share.

Unless it's a council ticket just bin it and carry on with life

I think you need to give the OP your contact details then when she has to pay a whopping charge she can contact you for the money - seems fair, given your advice.

Faustus · 18 Nov 2017 at 15:29

muon said:
I suggest you don't make comments like this. This is completely wrong.

I would hazard a guess what you saw was a council enforced penalty notice. Not even close to the OPs case.

It certainly is not wrong - try looking up the legislation. The person in question had parked on a private site, i.e. not council.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/ask-a-money-expert/do-have-pay-car-park-fines/

muon · 18 Nov 2017 at 15:31

Faustus said:
It certainly is not wrong - try looking up the legislation.

Try looking up the legislation?

How about you tell me what to look at since you know it so well and feel you can make an incorrect statement.

muon · 18 Nov 2017 at 15:35

Faustus said:
It certainly is not wrong - try looking up the legislation. The person in question had parked on a private site, i.e. not council.

The PoFA most certainly does not let a single charge get to anything like £2500 minus bailiff fees. This would have been a small claims track claim for which the Beavis case has given a rough idea of what a charge can be. In a small claims track claim you can only get back very limited costs.

I have ignored maybe 10 or so stupid charges. Only once has a company issued a court claim. They gave up as soon as I put in a defence which would have destroyed them in any hearing.

They all rely on ignorance, also no one ever tells any to ignore official court papers. If that happens then it is the time to actually act.

Faustus · 18 Nov 2017 at 15:38

muon said:
The PoFA most certainly does not let a single charge get to anything like £2500 minus bailiff fees. This would have been a small claims track claim for which the Beavis case has given a rough idea of what a charge can be. In a small claims track claim you can only get back very limited costs.

I have ignored maybe 10 or so stupid charges. Only once has a company issued a court claim. They gave up as soon as I put in a defence which would have destroyed them in any hearing.

They all rely on ignorance.

This chap had simply thrown the county court judgment letters in the bin. The matter was transferred to the High Court and that's when the charges start racking up. The episode should be available on My5.

muon · 18 Nov 2017 at 15:40

Faustus said:
This chap had simply thrown the county court judgment letters in the bin. The matter was transferred to the High Court and that's when the charges start racking up. The episode should be available on My5.

No one is suggesting you ignore official court papers.

I could issue a MCOL claim against you today for £100 for a made up charge. If you don't defend against it then you will lose by default (well someone will check it isn't plain silly). My charge isn't suddenly legal.

Faustus · 18 Nov 2017 at 15:40

muon said:
I have ignored maybe 10 or so stupid charges. Only once has a company issued a court claim. They gave up as soon as I put in a defence which would have destroyed them in any hearing.

They all rely on ignorance, also no one ever tells any to ignore official court papers. If that happens then it is the time to actually act.

Can't beat a Barrack Room Lawyer. No wonder they gave up.

muon · 18 Nov 2017 at 15:42

Faustus said:
Can't beat a Barrack Room Lawyer. No wonder they gave up.

If you think being demeaning makes you feel better, go ahead. The law isn't that hard, especially since the threshold for enforcing a contract in these scenarios is so high.

But yeh dismiss me, and carry on believing that the parking companies are staffed by quality lawyers (rarely an actual lawyer will see this until the day of a hearing) who work within the law.

Faustus · 18 Nov 2017 at 15:43

muon said:
No one is suggesting you ignore official court papers.

I could issue a MCOL claim against you today for £100 for a made up charge. If you don't defend against it then you will lose by default (well someone will check it isn't plain silly). My charge isn't suddenly legal.

If you make up a charge against someone and it's proved you made a false accusation against said person then you could actually be charged under Criminal Law.