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AMD Mouse Sync

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28 Nov 2006
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Caution you will need a cup of coffee for this thread. And i really hope Matt is pushing AMD on working something out because the first vendor to fix this problem will earn my lifetime loyalty. I have came on this journey by becoming more and more fussy as the years go by and it has caused me to test 3 rigs, About £2000 on the latest kit and i am sad to say i might as well of stayed with my old computer and bought a 360 controller which is how i presume someone can get perfect motion on the pc. I do not understand why more ULMB users are not cussing about this. This feature actually made my experience worse because removing blur shows the true nature of modern mice.

They are awful... Not only is USB 3.0 and 4.0 awful, But the technology in the mice is awful as well. When i mouse low enough to get my motion smooth, Im polling at around 100hz no where near the marketing ploy of 1000hz and a very low amunt of data is being sent. And to actually game at a sensitivity that gives 1000hz consistently would make games a complete stutter fest due to high sensitivity being less smooth. It ruins the whole 120hz experience for me to the point i would bet if i did a 60hz vs 120hz side by side with a mouse you would hardly notice the difference. The only time 120hz shines for me is when i stop using my mouse and use my keyboard. And i have been through so much kit i only wish i could say it was the mouse...


Mouse Sync is the next big thing in gaming. Because what most people will not know is that your polling rate varies by how fast your mouse moves. Even if your mouse polled at a steady 1000hz all the time without a variance according to how fast it was moving, You would still be out of sync at 120hz because the closest thing to 120fps would be 120x9 which means you need a polling of 1060hz. It would not be feasible to have a polling rate as low as 120hz because that causes image tearing and is the reason mice polling is rising as the years go by. And if you start to rattle your brain by taking into account frame dips, And the dips in mouse polling one can only image how out of sync the whole system is. And i think this is why controllers are smoother, Because everything is slower, And the polling might therefor be more consistent even if it was out of sync it would be less varied than a mouse. In the coming weeks i plan to really get stuck into this because i have been feeling depressed about it and cannot ignore it like most people. For the record to anyone who would like to compare what real motion is. Get a game and a ULMB monitor and bind look to keyboard and do a comparison versus the mouse. Hell i can even see my desktop cursor still has a trail at 120hz so i know that even at high values the problem will NEVER be fixed without someone like AMD. Microsoft do not care about USB it is not designed as a gaming interface. What AMD/Nvidia need to do is make thier Graphics cards take control over gaming and sync the system.


Yes i said it, I one day forsee a dedicated mouse port on the graphics card. The question is will it take ten years like it took ULMB to rival CRT? I am not the only person who is waiting on this to become reality. Just check out some of the great posts on this article by Blurbusters. http://www.blurbusters.com/mouse-125hz-vs-500hz-vs-1000hz/
 
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Loving my Logitech G502 :D Worlds best gaming mouse Laser to date!

Past year and a half I have been through most the highly rated gaming mice on the market and nothing "I mean Nothing!" comes close to the G502

The stutter you speak off I believe is when you have the DPI to high and mouse Sense to low. I game at 1800dpi windows 6/11 and adjust in game to my liking.
 
Have none of those problems with my Zowie FK at 500Hz (1KHz has some issues but doesn't really provide an advantage) using 6/11 and all setup for 1:1 input through the OS and game - do game at fairly low DPI though ~400-450 depending on mouse.
 
Edit, It is not a stutter per say and it does not go away on any combination of hz or dpi or in game settings or any settings i have tested. I mean literally nothing will fix this. It is simply a case of motion being worse and feeling worse with any mouse. Zowie would have the exact same issues because it is present across every computers and mouse i tested.


I cannot under estimate the amount of hardware, And hours i have put into this. This is going back maybe two years or more to my findings at 60hz and it would be the reason i gave up for a full 12 months. And now im back on double the res, Double the hz, Double the mouse polling with zero difference. The best way i can describe this is keyboard movement and look is 120hz. The mouse is 60hz. My games have obviously improved moving up so much in hardware and i do notice 120hz being a lot better. But when the mouse is coming into play it is faling into a middle ground that is simply not good enough for me.

I could probably become a bit sick after a long period of gaming with my mouse and this would be the reason. I need to get my hands on a 360 controller i think and do a comparison of keyboard v mouse v controller. To really kill this i would need a slow motion camera too like they had for gsync and frametimes.
 
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I'm a fairly low sens player - I'm mapped for 1:1 mouse movement - atleast with my personal preferences the issue is pretty much imperceptible.

My normal kind of mouse movement around the desktop averages about 430Hz - quite often clipping the update limit at 500Hz but there are 1-2 issues with 1000Hz and this setup.

With ULMB on I see one ghost copy of the pointer moving at a moderate speed left to right and no noticeable effects from any synchronisation issues.

EDIT: I have to move the mouse so slowly the polling drops below 70Hz before I can see any skipping or similar I would never normally move the mouse that slowly under any circumstance.
 
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That might be the skipping i notice when panning at ultra low sensitivity, I did a 65hz pan and it moves like turning a page in a book, It aint fluid but this is the weird bit i find that medium sens or higher is not as smooth at lower sens. Even through all of the above issues and the theory, I can mouse about 100hz in Source and it feels quite good. The problem is this is obviously not a sensitivity you can game with. This sort of conflicts though with the theory that higher hertz is better for the mouse. Maybe i am closer to 120hz this way and causing less judders?


I do not think it is the limits of monitor motion because the Eizo is right up there with the best there is in motion. It makes me just want to walk away to be honest. No fixes in sight and i do not think i have the compentance or tools to solve it either. Do you have a 360 controller by chance Roff to compare to keyboard v mouse? I am hesitant to drop the money on one because i have spent to much already.
 
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I always use markc's mousefix dunno if it would have any implications here but it does make the mouse input feel more consistent.
 

I ran the Markc win 8.1, Zero difference that is mouse cursor feel or input lag, That actually does not bother me or affect my cursor smoothness i have noticed. If you find something i aint tried, I will give you a tenner! :P


The only thing i have ever found to effect smoothness is two things which both do not fix my issue, But do make games smoother and that is Afterburner capping even over ingame which is weird, And the repeat keys on the keyboard being disabled smooths out strafing in source and dead island. You wont find a fix for this i guarantee. But that is just because you have forgotten.


Have you messed about with keyboard turning and mouse turning? Same game, Same area just use arrows and mouse to do two different pans. For me it is smoother on kb by a decent amount. And that is what im going to keep aiming for. In Portal 2 the keyboard will not distort text by any amount where as the starting intro in Portal where you first get the mavity gun will show a very very slight shimmer on the text that is graffiti on the concrete. The tardis style phonebox you come up in also has the same sort of behaviour around the edges. You have to be really anal about this thing though you probably will only notice it during testing and not actual gaming. The aliasing is something my eyes even have difficulty spotting but the feeling is a different matter.
 
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interesting topic, would be a brave move to try and replace usb for mice?
im not saying gamers wouldnt buy into it tho,

just dont see it happening lol doubt enough even see it as a problem
 
I ran the Markc win 8.1, Zero difference that is mouse cursor feel or input lag, That actually does not bother me or affect my cursor smoothness i have noticed. If you find something i aint tried, I will give you a tenner! :P


The only thing i have ever found to effect smoothness is two things which both do not fix my issue, But do make games smoother and that is Afterburner capping even over ingame which is weird, And the repeat keys on the keyboard being disabled smooths out strafing in source and dead island. You wont find a fix for this i guarantee. But that is just because you have forgotten.


Have you messed about with keyboard turning and mouse turning? Same game, Same area just use arrows and mouse to do two different pans. For me it is smoother on kb by a decent amount. And that is what im going to keep aiming for. In Portal 2 the keyboard will not distort text by any amount where as the starting intro in Portal where you first get the mavity gun will show a very very slight shimmer on the text that is graffiti on the concrete. The tardis style phonebox you come up in also has the same sort of behaviour around the edges. You have to be really anal about this thing though you probably will only notice it during testing and not actual gaming. The aliasing is something my eyes even have difficulty spotting but the feeling is a different matter.

I can tell difference between it on and off right away.. I can't play csgo without it ;)
 
I can tell difference between it on and off right away.. I can't play csgo without it ;)

Each to his own eh, I only notice the difference in turning off vsync which makes me feel like a weight has been taken off my mouse. I may be one of these who pefer a little lag, but i swear i see no difference in any mousefix hehe.

What about keyboard look with arrows in a game that supports versus a mouse pan? How would you describe that? A little better? Loads better? I am not trying to be funny but for me that is what brought this to my attention and made me realise where my problem was.

interesting topic, would be a brave move to try and replace usb for mice?
im not saying gamers wouldnt buy into it tho,

just dont see it happening lol doubt enough even see it as a problem


It could still be usb i guess, Just a decent USB 2.0 with low latency there are no real limits to mouse polling on USB 2.0 so it will work up until 8000hz or so i think. It would be future proof it is just as you say too many people do not care enough. Unless you are on ULMB or CRT, You will never notice it. It is game dependant too for example i thought Call of Juarez was dog poo in smoothness at 60hz. Now i can say it is just about playable but still pretty unsmooth. Remember also that a few years ago people probably never thought we needed G-Sync but slow motion and frame times made us think different. We actually have 3 different frequencys going on inside our computers with the frames per second, mouse polling frequency, And monitor frequency all out of alignment.
 
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A true USB 3 device doesn't poll. A native USB 3 mouse might be something to test should they become available.

I can't get my head around how no polling would work, And how it might help. I had no idea of this though i really pity the person who has to sit down and fix this. Already i feel my brain melting into ooze like the jackiechan.gif.


Razer are due an update soon, The Gladius i own made a start by brute force and a doubling of polling. I can set that to 125/500/1000/1500/2000hz but there seems to be no real difference to keyboard v mouse. It also highly unstable above 1000hz and at times polls 4000hz on fast swipes and as low as 60hz nearing a stop.

This is not helped by the fact they are only giving us TWO native Intel ports on Z87 boards by some vendors which has to be split between a i/o hogging mouse and 1000hz keyboard which again i tried removing to no avail on my mouse smoothness. I went as far as to use mine which is actually internal on the front ports and marked on the motherboard with a red USB 3.0 header. The rest are Marvel ports split including PS2. And these are my only USB devices because again i stripped and removed everything to the bare bones and i only install my drivers and browser. The pc is basically a gaming device only and nothing else is installed for those reasons. The only addon card as well is my Xonar so you can get an idea here of the extremes i have went too over the years.
 
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