AMD "Tonga" Silicon Features 384-bit Wide Memory Interface

[Marine-RX179]

AMD are getting scared and need something to fill the gap between now and April ............... but it looks too late because most of us have already brought something

Anyone that wanted bang bucks and could afford up to around £300 and has no preference toward Nvidia would most probably already bought 290 long ago.

Majority of the people jumping onto the 970 now are Nvidia users who would not consider buying AMD (so no sales lost for AMD there), but at the same time couldn't justify paying £400+ for the 780 and didn't make the jump. The issue however is that for the time between now and next AMD release, AMD would be losing potential repeat customers who are still on 7970 or lower to Nvidia, so yea it would definitely hurt them if they don't do something.

 

[bru]

Anyone that wanted bang bucks and could afford up to around £300 and has no preference toward Nvidia would most probably already bought 290 long ago.

+1

 

[humbug]

The question was in answer to response to CAT-THE-FiIFTH gave.

I am asking why would AMD make the new midrange Tonga a 384bit bus part when it isn't needed (even more so with the new compression) and it would encroach on their top end parts too much.

I don't understand what you are saying, are you saying it makes no difference if its 256Bit or 384Bit, that a 384Bit Bus adds nothing to the GPU? 256 or 384 the end result is the same.

Maybe it will replace the 290 as the 295, have you thought of that?

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

Thats ok, HBM is coming...

Yeah, but bus size is the argument, not effective throughput/bandwidth otherwise compression would be taken into account. Just bus size.

I cant imagine that they will be 3gb, in scrooge mcvida are putting 4gb on their cards. Im also hoping it will be 20nm too im hoping to pick up some super cheap 970 once all the 28nm stuff has blown over

Yeah, I'd have thought AMD will go for 6GB or even 8GB, with the exception being the mid-range cards that currently sit at 2GB, they might go to 3GB. The top end stuff will surely have more than 4GB though. Both sides increase the VRAM with each generation.

Anyone that wanted bang bucks and could afford up to around £300 and has no preference toward Nvidia would most probably already bought 290 long ago.

Majority of the people jumping onto the 970 now are Nvidia users who would not consider buying AMD (so no sales lost for AMD there), but at the same time couldn't justify paying £400+ for the 780 and didn't make the jump. The issue however is that for the time between now and next AMD release, AMD would be losing potential repeat customers who are still on 7970 or lower to Nvidia, so yea it would definitely hurt them if they don't do something.

I think this is quite a key thing here. People buying the new Nvidia cards are probably Nvidia fans or 'neutrals' that were looking to buy now. The AMD 'loyalists' wouldn't buy Nvidia regardless of what they released, so no sales lost. The same is also true the other way around where Nvidia loyalists won't buy AMD regardless. So it's just the bunch of neutrals that they're both fighting over and this will be where the sales are won and lost.
Right now those neutrals are probably leaning toward Nvidia and the 970s. The question is just how many are buying now. Some may be saving for the new AMD GPUs and larger PSU they'll need to run them.

 

[mmj_uk]

There are plenty of 290 now popping up on MM so it's fair to say members of both sides feel it's worthwhile upgrading to 870/880 for the improvements outside of purely benchmarking. Christmas is a busy period as well.

 

[bru]

I don't understand what you are saying, are you saying it makes no difference if its 256Bit or 384Bit, that a 384Bit Bus adds nothing to the GPU? 256 or 384 the end result is the same.

Maybe it will replace the 290 as the 295, have you thought of that?

My point is that even with a 384bit bus it wouldn't be fast enough to best the 290x, so what is the point. it is always going to be a second tier part and with the 256bit bus it does that job fine. I can see no benefit in AMD doing this part with a 384bit bus, it would not make the chip noticeably cheaper to make than Tahiti, which was the whole point.

 

[Marine-RX179]

I think this is quite a key thing here. People buying the new Nvidia cards are probably Nvidia fans or 'neutrals' that were looking to buy now. The AMD 'loyalists' wouldn't buy Nvidia regardless of what they released, so no sales lost. The same is also true the other way around where Nvidia loyalists won't buy AMD regardless. So it's just the bunch of neutrals that they're both fighting over and this will be where the sales are won and lost.
Right now those neutrals are probably leaning toward Nvidia and the 970s. The question is just how many are buying now. Some may be saving for the new AMD GPUs and larger PSU they'll need to run them.

Sometimes I wonder if AMD "loyalist" even exist

Far too often people get called AMD fanboy, just because they couldn't justify paying the price premium for the same performance like some people do because of their brand/feature preference toward Nvidia. Majority of the people bought AMD not because they like them as a brand, but a direct result of Nvidia's high pricing pushing them into AMD's open arms

There are plenty of 290 now popping up on MM so it's fair to say members of both sides feel it's worthwhile upgrading to 970/980 for the improvements outside of purely benchmarking.

More like they are bored and have an upgrade inch that need scratching rather than the cards being "worthwhile upgrade".

I myself is considering selling my 290x and getting a 970, but this is purely due to considering downsizing to mico-atx and in this case:
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18624656

...and my 290x with the Gelid Vision Rev2 cooler (2.5 slots) would be too close to my STX II 7.1 sound card. At least I am only considering change for actually potential need, unlike people that already got big case and powerful PSU doing it for the same of scratching the itch.

 

[Ayahuasca]

Judge the cards when they come out imo , 900's seems to be doing better then a lot assumed they would these may well be the same. Only thing i hope is they are 6gb not 3gb

This, I have no doubts the new AMD cards will be faster than the 970/980, they need to be really coming out months after nvidia's offerings, we all know nvidia will probably counter them with a new card or price drops. It should be a good time for anyone looking for a decent upgrade.

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

Sometimes I wonder if AMD "loyalist" even exist

Far too often people get called AMD fanboy, just because they couldn't justify paying the price premium for the same performance like some people do because of their brand/feature preference toward Nvidia. Majority of the people bought AMD not because they like them as a brand, but a direct result of Nvidia's high pricing pushing them into AMD's open arms


More like they are bored and have an upgrade inch that need scratching rather than the cards being "worthwhile upgrade".

Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree on this.
There are plenty that are still finding fault with the 970 despite its price and performance.
They won't pay the premium for Nvidia but then they'll pay extra for faster RAM that really isn't bang-for-buck, or new CPUs when they don't really need them or more powerful CPUs than they need. I think price has just become a convenient excuse for a lot of people now so they can throw out the Nvidia fanboy term but justify their own loyalties.
If there weren't AMD loyalists then at this point you'd expect to see no 290 sales now the 970 is out.

Just my opinion of course.

 

[humbug]

My point is that even with a 384bit bus it wouldn't be fast enough to best the 290x, so what is the point. it is always going to be a second tier part and with the 256bit bus it does that job fine. I can see no benefit in AMD doing this part with a 384bit bus, it would not make the chip noticeably cheaper to make than Tahiti, which was the whole point.

Why not?

The 285 runs 1792 Shaders at 918Mhz with a 256Bit Bus and is almost as fast as a 280X with 2048 Shaders @ 1050Mhz with a 384Bit Bus, actually there are times when the 285 is faster than the 280X.

Don't you think with 15% more Shaders running a 15% higher clock rate and a 50% wider bus it might not be 30% faster to replace the bigger more expensive less efficient 290?

 

[almighty15]

I for one will be installing my GTX970 when I get home and posting my 290 off to its new owner tomorrow.

And I moved to Nvidia for one reason..... Native down sampling support.

 

[Ayahuasca]

nvidia's high pricing hasn't really pushed many into AMD's arms though has it, nvidia still leading the discrete GPU market and plenty of people have sold 290's to get a 970 or 980.

Edit: Just like the wizard above ^

 

[win8.1]

Sometimes I wonder if AMD "loyalist" even exist

Far too often people get called AMD fanboy, just because they couldn't justify paying the price premium for the same performance like some people do because of their brand/feature preference toward Nvidia. Majority of the people bought AMD not because they like them as a brand, but a direct result of Nvidia's high pricing pushing them into AMD's open arms

Sad but very true indeed.

 

[eddyr]

My point is that even with a 384bit bus it wouldn't be fast enough to best the 290x, so what is the point. it is always going to be a second tier part and with the 256bit bus it does that job fine. I can see no benefit in AMD doing this part with a 384bit bus, it would not make the chip noticeably cheaper to make than Tahiti, which was the whole point.

Was cheaper the whole point?

256bit clearly does the job fine in achieving a 280/280X performing card. Tonga is a stronger performer than tahiti, it seems it was designed to be so. It likely benefits from the extra bandwidth in its full implementation.

AMD needed to update their lineups feature set (XDMA/mantle/freesync) of current cards, i.e where 280 and 280X were lacking. Take Tonga and do what has always been done, cut down the bus, drop a few SP, ROP etc etc (it is all a balancing act) to bring perfromance where they were aiming - in line as a 280/280X replacement. Are they also binning full chips for a 370X card, maybe who knows.

 

[Marine-RX179]

nvidia's high pricing hasn't really pushed many into AMD's arms though has it, nvidia still leading the discrete GPU market and plenty of people have sold 290's to get a 970 or 980.

Are you trying to disagree with me, or agree with me?

Cause what you said is totally supporting my point of "AMD loyalists" (as GoogalyMoogaly) may not really exist?

Had the 970 been launched at £330-£350, I seriously doubt many people with 290 would have bothered selling their card and switch to the 970.

970 is a odd once in a blue-moon Nvidia release that's actually great bang for bucks for sub £300. It is something we haven't seen in a long time...not since the GTX570 at £240-£280 at one point.

 

[Ayahuasca]

Cause what you said is supporting my point of "AMD loyalist" (as GoogalyMoogaly) don't really exist?

I'm pretty sure they do exist, you know they do just from this very forum. People who slap AMD all over their sigs They may of owned cards from the other side but it doesn't mean anything.

Just the same as the nvidia loyalists who try AMD but always end up back on nvidia.

 

[Marine-RX179]

I'm pretty sure they do exist, you know they do just from this very forum. People who slap AMD all over their sigs They may of owned cards from the other side but it doesn't mean anything.

Just the same as the nvidia loyalists who try AMD but always end up back on nvidia.

I only really recall two in particular that's about it (though one has now became a AMD rep )

But still, if Nvidia's pricing was competitive enough, I wonder how many of the AMD "loyalists" you refer to would actually remaining "loyal" I know I am neither AMD nor Nvidia "loyalist", but I'm "loyal" to my wallet try not to give it too much obuse.

The one remaining AMD "loyalist" I'm thinking of might actually walk away and buy an Nvidia if the pricing was right

But like I said...how often do we see "pricing is right" for Nvidia? After the 970, we'd probably have to wait for another 2-3 gens to see a card like that again

 

[bru]

Why not?

The 285 runs 1792 Shaders at 918Mhz with a 256Bit Bus and is almost as fast as a 280X with 2048 Shaders @ 1050Mhz with a 384Bit Bus, actually there are times when the 285 is faster than the 280X.

Don't you think with 15% more Shaders running a 15% higher clock rate and a 50% wider bus it might not be 30% faster to replace the bigger more expensive less efficient 290?

You may be right, but personally I cannot see it.

As eddyr says AMD needed to bring the features to the midrange, and they have done admirably with a 256bit bus, the new compression etc, I do not see any benefit for AMD doing this with a 384bit card.

Was cheaper the whole point?

256bit clearly does the job fine in achieving a 280/280X performing card. Tonga is a stronger performer than tahiti, it seems it was designed to be so. It likely benefits from the extra bandwidth in its full implementation.

AMD needed to update their lineups feature set (XDMA/mantle/freesync) of current cards, i.e where 280 and 280X were lacking. Take Tonga and do what has always been done, cut down the bus, drop a few SP, ROP etc etc (it is all a balancing act) to bring perfromance where they were aiming - in line as a 280/280X replacement. Are they also binning full chips for a 370X card, maybe who knows.

Maybe the tonga architecture will end up in the 370, but that would be fairly normal to rename and move down a tier for the new generation. both sides do that quite often.

 

[KompuKare]

Sometimes I wonder if AMD "loyalist" even exist

Well, I'm a won't ever buy Nvidia again'er. Ever since I was burned by their defective hardware from their poor choice of solder. Lesson: never trust a hardware company which boasts that they are a software company (seem to recall some JHH quote along those lines).

First to go was my 8800GT back in 2011. Just shortly after BFG went bankrupt. This was followed shortly after by my brother's 8800GT (not BFG). Then came a bunch of other failures of stuff either I or someone I knew owned like 8400M GS, 7150 chipsets and some laptop chipsets. All manufactured around the same time. Nvidia never did come clean about how widespread their problem was, but the wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeForce_8_series#Problems
only mentions G84 and G86 but I don't believe that.

Anyway, won't ever buy Nvidia again. And if all these AMD doom&gloom stories turn out to be true and AMD go bankrupt, I'll just put up with Intel HD. At least Intel stand over their products (even when the problem is minor like SB SATA ports), unlike Nvidia.

As for the thread subject: this would a surprise. Obviously, the chip die size made it look like Tonga was step back in efficiency but if a large 384-bit version with more shaders is coming this might not be true. Would this be first time that AMD have die harvested and binned a chip by bringing out the cut-down version first? I remember thinking since the 7950 GHz Edition that AMD should really do more binning: 7950 GHz Edition @ 1.25V was hot and loud, while a binned version at 1.00V would have been far cooler and quieter. After all, a lot of miners saved 20-40W by doing exactly that.

 

[Ayahuasca]

I only really recall two in particular that's about it (though one has now became a AMD rep )

But still, if Nvidia's pricing was competitive enough, I wonder how many of the AMD "loyalists" you refer to would actually remaining "loyal" I know I am neither AMD nor Nvidia "loyalist", but I'm "loyal" to my wallet try not to give it too much obuse.

The one remaining AMD "loyalist" I'm thinking of might actually walk away and buy an Nvidia if the pricing was right

But like I said...how often do we see "pricing is right" for Nvidia? After the 970, we'd probably have to wait for another 2-3 gens to see a card like that again

As proved in the above post, there is many reasons people are loyal to a brand outside of just the price.