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AMD V INTEL Debate boring?
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Soldato
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All credit goes to I3r0k3N7FEET at another forum for this post...
Sandy Bridge
Sandy bridge is intel's next architecture replacing westmere/nehalem/lynnfield/clarksfield etc etc, for those who don't know intel have a 'tik tok' system when it comes to architecture, what this means is:
a tik is a NEW architecture
a tok is a die shrink and mod of current architecture, eg.
core 2 q6600 is 65nm this was a tik
core 2 q9550 is 45nm this was a tok
core i7 920 is 45nm this was a tik
core i7 980x is 32nm this was a tok
The next 'tik' is the new architecture sandy bridge based on 32nm and the tok of this was known as IVYbridge but is now known as Haswell which will be on the 22nm fab.
sandybridge will go into production 2nd half 2010 for a release Q4/Q1 2010/11.
While there are no confirmed figures Intel are claiming that SB has:
Apparently socket 1155 chips will not have a triple channel IMC, this is likely to reduce die space used, though if the early performance indication is to believed they still can out perform an intel i7 965 with triple channel. Triple or even quad channel RAM may be seen on the socket 2011 or extreme chips/motherboards. It appears that SB will natively support the new 'Jedec' standard of 1866mhz ram and possibly 2133 too.
SB will have better efficiency over existing chips, fitting into a 85/95w tdp.
From what it seems there will be a 2 and 4 cored release with hyperthreading and is suggested that Intel may make a 6-8 core release later in 2011.
SB has also been hinted to being the first 'full power' cpu to be used in a laptop too, giving some awesome portable power and to keep a dominant hand in the portable sector for when the bulldozer based variant from AMD is released codenamed 'Bobcat'.
Intel are also making quite a fuss about the integrated GPU saying it will offer increased graphics display. Although i think that combining a 45nm graphics chip with a 32nm cpu sounds a little odd but im sure they know what theyre doing.
While SB will offer various improvements, how much over the current i7 line up is yet to be revealed as intel have stated that not only are they looking for performance gains but are also looking for the best balanced performance. If the Techpower up report is to be believed then in certain areas it is pretty much KA over current I7 cpus, while in other areas it is no better at all.
I think that SB will be released a little before AMD's llano/bulldozer in 2011 which will be the most significant cpu showdown in recent history.
While many claim that intel are ahead of AMD in X86 computing, they are significantly behind in GPGPU. They are dedicating 25% of die space for an integrated gpu and imo this is pretty brassy as i think this could have been better spent on other, or improved features, as well as keeping the onboard pcie controller and cramming in more and more things.
Due to all of this cramming of arguably unnecessary features, it has arised that sandybrdige MAY not be overclockable. I am sure you have all read the rumours by now. though we know not of whther or not this will effect the 2011 platform too should it be true.
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2010/07/22/intel-to-limit-sandy-bridge-overclocking/1
Whether this is true or not cannot be confirmed but it has been noted that there had been previously rumours like this about previous Intel architectures, though if this is to be true, a 'workaround' will be nearly, if not impossible task, and whichever OEM manages it first in the motherboard market will have a huge advantage.
The reasoning behind the turbo modes, (which have become an ever more apparent feature) are to offer users higher performance without being 'enthusiast overclockers' also to reduce power consumption and to filter out those bargain 'gems' low end for low end, high end for high end.. simples. So I see this will be a growing trend from AMD and intel.
With AMD's fusion arriving later than Intel's offering of an integrated gpu, AMD could be a little annoyed as it steals their light of being the first to do so, but whether or not intel will gain any success from it is a different matter. AMD pionneered the innovation of integrating CPU and GPU a fair few years ago and it will be interesting to see when eventually the fruit of the amd ati merger ripen and it will seem that sandy bridge and bulldozer will go head to head. With Windows 8 purportedly supporting 128bit microarchitecture, Intel and AMD really are looking to shape up technology very very soon. interesting times indeed.
Bulldozer
Bulldozer is the codename for AMD's brand new architecture. Every cpu from AMD up until today has been based on a modified K series core dating from way back in 2004. The merger between AMD and ATI was in lue of this vision which had left AMD financially in turmoil, and now are managing to pick up the pace.
Fusion
Fusion is the combination for cpu and gpu compute power on the same die.
AMD have had the vision of merging CPU and GPU for a long time, but it is more than a CPU with a viewport ala Intel's implementation. While combining CPU and x86 processing power and scheduled tasks with the GPU's SIMD engines to create MMT (massively multi threaded) operations they are seeking to create what AMD have dubbed an APU (accelerated processing unit).
Words such as CPU/GPU, 'thread fusing' (the reverse of hyper threading which would speed up single threaded apps vastly) first x128 processor, increasing efficiency and IPCC and memory bandwidth increase etc, all these things are pointing towards an awesome cpu or be it APU, according to AMD software makers can chose to assign threads to the GPU or the CPU, the GPU can be used for MMT parrallel processing and direct compute while the CPU does sequential tasks.
The first iteration of Bulldozer will not be an APU, which now will go to 'Zacate' which will be a single/dualcore apu for ultraslim/ netbooks and is due to be released in december.
The release of Llano APU is said to have been pushed back till Q2/3 2011, and Llano itself is shaping up to be a pretty amazing APU thus will tell the tale of things to come with Bulldozer. There have been rumours of Bulldozer being moved forwards to meet the release of Sandy Bridge.
Bulldozer will come in 4 and 8 cored versions and is in a modular design of two cores per module, the server will see 16 cored versions. It is likely that like Magny Cours, the server version, will see quad channel RAM, there is no information whether or not the desktop version will have quad channel or not, but lets hope eh? BD has been confirmed to have native support for 1866 ram too like SB.
The aim is to increase multithreaded performance as well as single threadedness and it is not yet confirmed or denied if bulldozer can 'threadfuse', which would mean running 2 cores for a single thread.
Bulldozer will too support AVX AES SSE1-5 CVT and many new and previously unavailable instruction sets to AMD. This will also be the first flagship AMD chip to sport 'high K metal gate' (HKMG) this is something that intel have used since the core 2 architecture and has shown markedly better quality fabrication, higher thermal capacity, and better overclocking ability.
**xbit labs^^
All this leads to some serious crunching power.
Bulldozer's fate is to become an APU like Llano, with AMD officially stating that they plan to offload off FP calculations onto the GPU/SIMD engines, with the cpu running sequential tasks. and have stating their vision of a 48 cored cpu come late 2011/2012. It is not announced how AMD will count cores in an APU at this time, though likely will have a breakdown of logical cores and shader cores.
Bulldozer has recently taped out and there is to be an official annoucement in august in regards to the future of AMD and bulldozer.
Sandy Bridge
Sandy bridge is intel's next architecture replacing westmere/nehalem/lynnfield/clarksfield etc etc, for those who don't know intel have a 'tik tok' system when it comes to architecture, what this means is:
a tik is a NEW architecture
a tok is a die shrink and mod of current architecture, eg.
core 2 q6600 is 65nm this was a tik
core 2 q9550 is 45nm this was a tok
core i7 920 is 45nm this was a tik
core i7 980x is 32nm this was a tok
The next 'tik' is the new architecture sandy bridge based on 32nm and the tok of this was known as IVYbridge but is now known as Haswell which will be on the 22nm fab.
sandybridge will go into production 2nd half 2010 for a release Q4/Q1 2010/11.
While there are no confirmed figures Intel are claiming that SB has:
- increased IPCC (intrucstions per clock cycle) over existing
- faster on chip communication
- integrated gpu (not to be confused with on die gpu)
- shared cache between cpu and gpu
- new instructions (AVX, AES)
- better 'intelligent' overclocking
Apparently socket 1155 chips will not have a triple channel IMC, this is likely to reduce die space used, though if the early performance indication is to believed they still can out perform an intel i7 965 with triple channel. Triple or even quad channel RAM may be seen on the socket 2011 or extreme chips/motherboards. It appears that SB will natively support the new 'Jedec' standard of 1866mhz ram and possibly 2133 too.
SB will have better efficiency over existing chips, fitting into a 85/95w tdp.
From what it seems there will be a 2 and 4 cored release with hyperthreading and is suggested that Intel may make a 6-8 core release later in 2011.
SB has also been hinted to being the first 'full power' cpu to be used in a laptop too, giving some awesome portable power and to keep a dominant hand in the portable sector for when the bulldozer based variant from AMD is released codenamed 'Bobcat'.
Intel are also making quite a fuss about the integrated GPU saying it will offer increased graphics display. Although i think that combining a 45nm graphics chip with a 32nm cpu sounds a little odd but im sure they know what theyre doing.
While SB will offer various improvements, how much over the current i7 line up is yet to be revealed as intel have stated that not only are they looking for performance gains but are also looking for the best balanced performance. If the Techpower up report is to be believed then in certain areas it is pretty much KA over current I7 cpus, while in other areas it is no better at all.
I think that SB will be released a little before AMD's llano/bulldozer in 2011 which will be the most significant cpu showdown in recent history.
While many claim that intel are ahead of AMD in X86 computing, they are significantly behind in GPGPU. They are dedicating 25% of die space for an integrated gpu and imo this is pretty brassy as i think this could have been better spent on other, or improved features, as well as keeping the onboard pcie controller and cramming in more and more things.
Due to all of this cramming of arguably unnecessary features, it has arised that sandybrdige MAY not be overclockable. I am sure you have all read the rumours by now. though we know not of whther or not this will effect the 2011 platform too should it be true.
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2010/07/22/intel-to-limit-sandy-bridge-overclocking/1
Whether this is true or not cannot be confirmed but it has been noted that there had been previously rumours like this about previous Intel architectures, though if this is to be true, a 'workaround' will be nearly, if not impossible task, and whichever OEM manages it first in the motherboard market will have a huge advantage.
The reasoning behind the turbo modes, (which have become an ever more apparent feature) are to offer users higher performance without being 'enthusiast overclockers' also to reduce power consumption and to filter out those bargain 'gems' low end for low end, high end for high end.. simples. So I see this will be a growing trend from AMD and intel.
With AMD's fusion arriving later than Intel's offering of an integrated gpu, AMD could be a little annoyed as it steals their light of being the first to do so, but whether or not intel will gain any success from it is a different matter. AMD pionneered the innovation of integrating CPU and GPU a fair few years ago and it will be interesting to see when eventually the fruit of the amd ati merger ripen and it will seem that sandy bridge and bulldozer will go head to head. With Windows 8 purportedly supporting 128bit microarchitecture, Intel and AMD really are looking to shape up technology very very soon. interesting times indeed.
Bulldozer
Bulldozer is the codename for AMD's brand new architecture. Every cpu from AMD up until today has been based on a modified K series core dating from way back in 2004. The merger between AMD and ATI was in lue of this vision which had left AMD financially in turmoil, and now are managing to pick up the pace.
Fusion
Fusion is the combination for cpu and gpu compute power on the same die.
AMD have had the vision of merging CPU and GPU for a long time, but it is more than a CPU with a viewport ala Intel's implementation. While combining CPU and x86 processing power and scheduled tasks with the GPU's SIMD engines to create MMT (massively multi threaded) operations they are seeking to create what AMD have dubbed an APU (accelerated processing unit).
Words such as CPU/GPU, 'thread fusing' (the reverse of hyper threading which would speed up single threaded apps vastly) first x128 processor, increasing efficiency and IPCC and memory bandwidth increase etc, all these things are pointing towards an awesome cpu or be it APU, according to AMD software makers can chose to assign threads to the GPU or the CPU, the GPU can be used for MMT parrallel processing and direct compute while the CPU does sequential tasks.
The first iteration of Bulldozer will not be an APU, which now will go to 'Zacate' which will be a single/dualcore apu for ultraslim/ netbooks and is due to be released in december.
The release of Llano APU is said to have been pushed back till Q2/3 2011, and Llano itself is shaping up to be a pretty amazing APU thus will tell the tale of things to come with Bulldozer. There have been rumours of Bulldozer being moved forwards to meet the release of Sandy Bridge.
Bulldozer will come in 4 and 8 cored versions and is in a modular design of two cores per module, the server will see 16 cored versions. It is likely that like Magny Cours, the server version, will see quad channel RAM, there is no information whether or not the desktop version will have quad channel or not, but lets hope eh? BD has been confirmed to have native support for 1866 ram too like SB.
The aim is to increase multithreaded performance as well as single threadedness and it is not yet confirmed or denied if bulldozer can 'threadfuse', which would mean running 2 cores for a single thread.
Bulldozer will too support AVX AES SSE1-5 CVT and many new and previously unavailable instruction sets to AMD. This will also be the first flagship AMD chip to sport 'high K metal gate' (HKMG) this is something that intel have used since the core 2 architecture and has shown markedly better quality fabrication, higher thermal capacity, and better overclocking ability.
**xbit labs^^
All this leads to some serious crunching power.
Bulldozer's fate is to become an APU like Llano, with AMD officially stating that they plan to offload off FP calculations onto the GPU/SIMD engines, with the cpu running sequential tasks. and have stating their vision of a 48 cored cpu come late 2011/2012. It is not announced how AMD will count cores in an APU at this time, though likely will have a breakdown of logical cores and shader cores.
Bulldozer has recently taped out and there is to be an official annoucement in august in regards to the future of AMD and bulldozer.
I went from Athlon X2 to Core i5 Quad, only good memories from owning an AMD CPU. It still goes strong in my secondary PC and handles older games just fine.
I have high hopes towards the Bulldozer, there are great number of applications (inc. games) that still cannot utilize the power of multi-core CPUs. If AMD can change it in a good way, their CPU platform may be my new upgrade next year. As for now, I treat any news about these CPUs light-hearted, owning one of the best quads out there.
It would be a great shame if Intel really decided to limit or even liquidate overclocking with their processors (doesn't matter if it applies only to Sandy Bridge - mainstream CPUs).
I have high hopes towards the Bulldozer, there are great number of applications (inc. games) that still cannot utilize the power of multi-core CPUs. If AMD can change it in a good way, their CPU platform may be my new upgrade next year. As for now, I treat any news about these CPUs light-hearted, owning one of the best quads out there.
It would be a great shame if Intel really decided to limit or even liquidate overclocking with their processors (doesn't matter if it applies only to Sandy Bridge - mainstream CPUs).
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I see the mid-to-high end continuing in the same vein it has recently, Intel in lead for raw performance with AMD providing the best value.
What's exciting about the next range of AMD processors is Llano/Ontario. If well executed it really is a potential game changer in the mid-low desktop and notebook market, where 95% of all PCs are sold. Due to Intels's woeful IGP AMD have the potential to beat them on price, power and perfromance at the same time.
And Intel can no longer get away with using their market dominance to keep AMD out.
What's exciting about the next range of AMD processors is Llano/Ontario. If well executed it really is a potential game changer in the mid-low desktop and notebook market, where 95% of all PCs are sold. Due to Intels's woeful IGP AMD have the potential to beat them on price, power and perfromance at the same time.
And Intel can no longer get away with using their market dominance to keep AMD out.
but amd x6 chips keep up with the i7 in ~most things
Soldato
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I thought the GPU was to be on-die as Intel have been describing it as Monolithic?
They will be dual channel only as they are the mainstream parts.
Soldato
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Not too sure actually...
I thought Intel were trying to be sensible this time and having all their chips on the 1155 platform to reduce fragmentation.
Soldato
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1155 = Mainstream dual channel mem quad or dual core with (on-die?) gpu
New high end socket = High end tri/quad channel mem quad/hex/octa core
Associate
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Being a fanboy of either brand is stupid. If you stick to one all the time, you're missing out on one of the great advantages of the PC: The fact there's a wide variety of hardware to chose from.
If you're going to buy the same stuff just because of a brand-name, you might as well just get an apple mac.
Forget about the names, just look at benchmarks and price comparison lists, and make your decisions based off them.
If you're going to buy the same stuff just because of a brand-name, you might as well just get an apple mac.
Forget about the names, just look at benchmarks and price comparison lists, and make your decisions based off them.
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But not everyone wants to overclock, not everyone needs the latest technology. Your looking at it from a non home users prespective here. Rewind alittle bit ...
Apple macs are very expensive for what a PC with Windows 7 can do but apple are just so much smoother in daily work loads. It depends what the person wants at the end of the day and if they have money to burn. I am not a fanboy but a daily users of technology and my job consists of that too.
I don't go for brand as you said.....I go for what it can offer to it's users.
and.... YES, the AMD vs Intel debates are boring... who cares just read on what the latest technology can offer at the time vs price and performence.
This also goes for motherboards, memory, CPUs, power supplies, dvd writters, tv cards et all. Same debate over and over again, which some people fail to see because they are in their own little bubbles.
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I don't agree with you at all..
For example, I buy Corsair (/Asus, some might argue) because I know it's quality stuff and I will stick to that as long as they make quality, and I don't care if its price is a bit higher.
IMO you should always stick to a brand you think makes the best quality stuff for you which you can afford.
If Apple design/engineering and OSX makes you happy, you should keep buying that. Just know you are overpaying
The great thing about PC's is that you can customize them. Macs are very restricted in comparison. Software wise it's a bit better now if you ask me
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I don't agree with you at all..
For example, I buy Corsair (/Asus, some might argue) because I know it's quality stuff and I will stick to that as long as they make quality, and I don't care if its price is a bit higher.
IMO you should always stick to a brand you think makes the best quality stuff for you which you can afford.
If Apple design/engineering and OSX makes you happy, you should keep buying that. Just know you are overpaying
The great thing about PC's is that you can customize them. Macs are very restricted in comparison. Software wise it's a bit better now if you ask me
Yes, I totally agree with you.
The argument is very boring. as it all depends what you want to achieve, the price of the item and the price of the matching components.
And of course fan boy status (which there's nothing wrong with, as long as they realise that it is a fan boy status and not for any real reason). Now I've never really been a fan of certain companys. But I am now with Logitech and their mazing customer service. All my perphials will likely be logitech. Even if other products are slightly cheaper or better.
And of course fan boy status (which there's nothing wrong with, as long as they realise that it is a fan boy status and not for any real reason). Now I've never really been a fan of certain companys. But I am now with Logitech and their mazing customer service. All my perphials will likely be logitech. Even if other products are slightly cheaper or better.
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I don't agree with you at all..
For example, I buy Corsair (/Asus, some might argue) because I know it's quality stuff and I will stick to that as long as they make quality, and I don't care if its price is a bit higher.
IMO you should always stick to a brand you think makes the best quality stuff for you which you can afford.
If Apple design/engineering and OSX makes you happy, you should keep buying that. Just know you are overpaying
The great thing about PC's is that you can customize them. Macs are very restricted in comparison. Software wise it's a bit better now if you ask me
That's the thing though.... you said you'll buy corsair "as long as they make quality"....... so you're not basing your purchase soley on their name, you're checking the quality of each individual product before you buy (I also have lots of corsair stuff). If their quality suddenly dropped off..... you wouldn't still continue to buy them just based on brand loyalty. A true "fanboy" will..... regardless of whether the competitors offer better value products.