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AMD vs Intel in 64 bit.

Soldato
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
3,145
Location
Leicester
Hi,

I have been searching but I can't find reviews and comparisons in either XP or Vista (64 bit versions).

This is important to me considering my next OS choice!

Is the Conroe still ahead in 64 bit or does the AMD reel it back in?

Cheers.
 
Quotes from sombody called "Hightest"

Articles that bench 64bit performance on the two processors do provide the following conclusions.

1. AMD 64 processors garner about a 15-20% performance boost on average when moving to 64bit code versus 32bit code.

2. Conroe or Core 2 Duo garners 5-7% performance boost, showing a less efficient 64bit design.

3. However the sheer raw performance of the Core 2 Duo still has it outperforming at least by 33% in 64bit versus 54% in 32bit, so the peformance gain of the AMD is currently irrelevant as it's still slower.

There is no link the the alleged articles unfortunately. :(

True.. False?
 
NathanE said:
False. Conroe is faster already so of course it's going to gain less of an increase.

How does this speed of conroe affect the % increase from 32 bit the 64 bit code?

Cheers.
 
Pants said:
How does this speed of conroe affect the % increase from 32 bit the 64 bit code?

Cheers.

Because it would depend how the 64bit code is implemented internally, and whether the system takes advantage of 64bit sections for 32 bit code via the use of fused ops etc...

Some techniques are more implementable on 32 bit code than 64bit, and that would reduce the gap between the two quite substantially.
 
NathanE said:
False. Conroe is faster already so of course it's going to gain less of an increase.

bare in mind intels 64bit capability is based on patented designs by AMD and licensed from AMD in its entirety. based on this there probably isnt that much between them with regards to basic 64bit usage under vista.
 
Yup, and I just remembered that macro-ops fusion doesn't work on x64 mode. Now this is Conroe's party piece in 32-bit mode... so why isn't there a massive loss of performance I hear you ask? The answer is that the AMD64 instruction set was actually designed quite well by AMD's engineers - and Intel hasn't yet found any easy ways to perform the same optimisation on it that they were doing to x86. AMD64 offers a lot of "pre-fused" instructions which means its harder to identify instruction sequences that can be optimised. Maybe for the 45nm chips they will but don't expect it to be a major increase like it was for Conroe in 32-bit. Conroe basically extracted the last drops of IPC from x86.
 
Last edited:
would this only be relevant for programs specifically designed for 64bit? what about older 32bit apps that work perfectly fine under vista 64
 
True, but Macro-op fusion isnt Conroe's only trick. Conroe's got 4 decoders, and using Macro-op fusion it can sometimes execute a 5th instruction in parallel (per core).

AMD64's can only execute up to 3 instructions in parallel on each core.

Of course a lot depends on the optimizations used during compiling, many programs dont even run more than 1 instruction at a time, thats why Hyperthreading worked on P4's, the spare decoders were used by a second thread to make better use of the width of the processor.

Anyway in 32bit Conroe can execute 1-5 instructions at once, while AMD64's can execute 1-3 instructions. Assuming that virtually no 64 bit instructions work with macro-op fusion, that still leaves 1-4 instructions for Conroe.

And there were other improvements in conroe as well, like the full 128bit internal busses, allowing 128bit SSE instructions to be executed in a single clock cycle.

Intel and AMD both cross license their technologies with each other, so naturally intel could use the 64bit enhancements, likewise AMD are able to use intels SSE (1/2/3/4/n). If intel hadn't been trying to sell their IA64 architechture, im sure they would have build a 64bit X86 a long time ago. After all they had no problem going from 16bit 286, to true 32bit 386.

Still AMD added quite a few new 64bit only registers (present in the Intel version as well), which is a nice bonus, wouldnt be surprised if a pure 'intel' design would have simply extended the original 8086 registers to 64bit, without adding the extra 64bit general purpose registers.
 
bizarre, or could it be that AMD chips are better at excecuting AMD instructions than intel ones, certainly makes sense considering the instructions were made for there K8 processor :)
 
DanF said:
would this only be relevant for programs specifically designed for 64bit? what about older 32bit apps that work perfectly fine under vista 64

Watch out , ive used 64Bit Vista and all i will say is it is VERY picky about what it will and wont run. Especially anything that uses an interface driver becuase it will have to be WHQL Signed, or it refusues to install.

Rgds,
Nomisf
 
Gashman said:
bizarre, or could it be that AMD chips are better at excecuting AMD instructions than intel ones, certainly makes sense considering the instructions were made for there K8 processor :)

Not especially bizarre, it simply suggests that the Core2duo is more highly optimised for 32bit code than 64bit, whereas the AMD is equally optimised for both (but slower than the Intel at both).

There are some tricks (as already discussed) that don't work with 64bit code but provide a good performance jump for 32bit, which would tie in with the results we see here.
 
Nomisf said:
Watch out , ive used 64Bit Vista and all i will say is it is VERY picky about what it will and wont run. Especially anything that uses an interface driver becuase it will have to be WHQL Signed, or it refusues to install.

Rgds,
Nomisf

Been using it since it came out on MSDN. A few things make it crash, the most silly is youtube videos that are maximized, instant reset. Most stuff is totally fine though, the default installed Vista drivers play all my installed games perfectly fine.
 
to be honest, i think its forceware beta that causes the issues on my machine , had a play with it now and things are looking up. Spose at the end of the days its more luck at the moment. What i will say is Vista is lovely OS :)

Rgds,
Nomisf
 
Cyber-Mav said:

Cheers, I have been looking for something like that xbitlabs article for ages!

Conclusion: (for those too lazy etc)

"At the same time I would like to point out that it looks like Athlon 64 processors ensure higher performance increase when switching to 64-bit work mode. The average performance improvement we have seen from Athlon 64 FX-62 equaled 16%, while Core 2 Extreme X6800 demonstrated only 10% average performance boost. This way, there is a certain difference: AMD K8 turns out 6% mode efficient in 64-bit mode than Intel Core. However, this difference cannot compensate for the 20% performance advantage of the Intel Core 2 Duo over the Athlon 64 X2 working at the same clock speed, which we have pointed out in our previous articles. Therefore, we will not change our conclusions about the performance of the new Intel processors even keeping in mind the upcoming launch of 64-bit Windows Vista OS family."
 
locutus12 said:
bare in mind intels 64bit capability is based on patented designs by AMD and licensed from AMD in its entirety. based on this there probably isnt that much between them with regards to basic 64bit usage under vista.

I have to say that I'm really pleasantly suprised at this. If I were the Guv' at AMD I would wait until most of us are using 64bit OS's (shouldn't be long now) and pull the rug from under Intel by hiking the license price or withdrawing it completely.

Theres a lot of history between these two. In the 80's Intel asked AMD to make chips under license to help provide suitable supply. This helped make AMD the company it is today. When Intel had suitably grown to supply for demand itself it withdrew the license.

Nomisf said:
Watch out , ive used 64Bit Vista and all i will say is it is VERY picky about what it will and wont run. Especially anything that uses an interface driver becuase it will have to be WHQL Signed, or it refusues to install.

To be fair, you have, at best, been using RC1 and beta drivers. More likely, beta 2 and beta drivers.

I'm sure the gold code will be thoroughly bug tested and free from security holes :D
 
Nutbusta said:
I have to say that I'm really pleasantly suprised at this. If I were the Guv' at AMD I would wait until most of us are using 64bit OS's (shouldn't be long now) and pull the rug from under Intel by hiking the license price or withdrawing it completely.

AMD rely on a lot more Intel IP than the other way round... AMD being dumb like that would be a great way to commit corporate suicide, but not a lot else.
 
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