AMD will never learn...

[manveruppd]

Probably old news, but...
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35902
What happened to providing customers with a stable platform and a clear and easy upgrade path? If the chip count won't change, then presumably only the logic does, and if that's the case surely they could build the extra functionality into chipsets and enable it incrementally with BIOS updates as the CPUs to support them come out, right?

 

[Big.Wayne]

AMD will never learn...

I think they learnt plenty!

It's amazing really that such a small company has stolen INTEL's thunder for so long! but I'm not sure what they are doing atm to be honest

 

[OC_A64]

but I'm not sure what they are doing atm to be honest

Pushing tech forwards....?

The average Joe won`t have any need to upgrade their mobo or CPU. The average enthusiast can afford to upgrade if they want top performance.

 

[PaulProteus]

Could this make DELL pulling out? It was long time before DELL bought into AMD chips and given the "clear" future, they might well get back where they were - Intel only.

Unless the transformation is justified by a serious leap in the performance, I do not see how AMD would get back on track.

 

[snowdog]

Main reason i stayed intel ( even when a64 were hot) was because i hate amd for changing socket, luckily i skipped the 1st gen pentiums4's till 478 became a standard, then kept the socket for a loooooong time...
Now i hope intel still stays with lga775, will be easier for everyone.
Really if amd still used 754 ( like they should) and just being out new cpu's for same socket, so at least mainboards have backward capability, i'd be using an a64 for ages by now...
But amd is stupid and makes ppl old cpu's incompatible with new mobo's, making step by step upgardes ( 1st mobo then cpu afetr a year or somit, etc...) impossible...

 

[achitophel]

This is a very bad idea for AMD The confusion caused is going to be problematic, particularly given that some chips will be supported by 2 or more mobos, but with reduced / enhanced functionality depending.

The mobo is generally the hardware item which I swop least frequently - I like to get a lowish end CPU (currently 6300) and incrementally upgrade CPU as games become CPU bound. That simply won't be an option with the AMD roadmap.

 

[OC_A64]

Would you rather see advancements in CPU tech stand still? If AMD had stayed with socket 754, then we wouldnt be running dual channel....
You also seem to be forgetting, Intel does kinda do a similar thing... Ok, socket format stays the same but you try getting a Core2 to run in one of the original 775 boards. Not a chance.

But anyway, to get back on the topic of the thread.... OMG AMD what the HELL are you playing at you bunch of n00bs... You're gonna loose sales cos of this... Dell's gonna dump you cos you keep switching sockets, and EVERYONES gonna be confused as to what works with what.

 

[kola]

I now have a headache reading that stuipd amd

 

[Alexrose1uk]

Main reason i stayed intel ( even when a64 were hot) was because i hate amd for changing socket, luckily i skipped the 1st gen pentiums4's till 478 became a standard, then kept the socket for a loooooong time...
Now i hope intel still stays with lga775, will be easier for everyone.
Really if amd still used 754 ( like they should) and just being out new cpu's for same socket, so at least mainboards have backward capability, i'd be using an a64 for ages by now...
But amd is stupid and makes ppl old cpu's incompatible with new mobo's, making step by step upgardes ( 1st mobo then cpu afetr a year or somit, etc...) impossible...

Not entirely true. Consider how long SocketA was used for on thier AthlonXP+ chips. Im sure they changed the sockets for a good reason.

 

[Big.Wayne]

To be fare, both companies chop n change their design and just keeping the same socket didn't mean that you could pop a new chip in . . . because the board you were using didn't have the right voltage control (or similar) for the newer CPU's . . .

Both companies should listen to us (the customers) a bit more, in general we aren't interested in extra cores at this time because software support is still quite a bit behind . . .

I am still a big fan of AMD (as I am INTEL also!), AMD have performed wonders the past few years and no doubt they gave INTEL quite a wake up call!

 

[steve258]

Main reason i stayed intel ( even when a64 were hot) was because i hate amd for changing socket, luckily i skipped the 1st gen pentiums4's till 478 became a standard, then kept the socket for a loooooong time...
Now i hope intel still stays with lga775, will be easier for everyone.
Really if amd still used 754 ( like they should) and just being out new cpu's for same socket, so at least mainboards have backward capability, i'd be using an a64 for ages by now...
But amd is stupid and makes ppl old cpu's incompatible with new mobo's, making step by step upgardes ( 1st mobo then cpu afetr a year or somit, etc...) impossible...

As said same socket doesn't mean you don't have to change mobo!! I still have a P4 520 rig with 915P chipset, I got it right after Intel released LGA775, thought it would be future proof but guess what, it wouldn't even take 65nm P4s let alone dual cores!! At least 939 can support dual core chips with a simple BIOS update.

AMD realise they have many platforms coming out in the next two years and that is why they make AM2-AM2+ & AM2+-AM3 chips interchangable to make the transition a bit less pain in the neck. That means AM2+ mobo will support all three generations of CPU!! I'd like to see Intel comes up with something like this!!

 

[Big.Wayne]

At least 939 can support dual core chips with a simple BIOS update

Yeah that's a very good point!

 

[Kamakazie!]

AMD realise they have many platforms coming out in the next two years and that is why they make AM2-AM2+ & AM2+-AM3 chips interchangable to make the transition a bit less pain in the neck. That means AM2+ mobo will support all three generations of CPU!! I'd like to see Intel comes up with something like this!!

As well as that AMD also previously announced that AM2 cpu's would be compatible with socket AM3 i would still wait to see before i believe this article.
We shall see.

Even if it is just with AM2+ CPUs then the AM2 socket will still last at least 2 years which is a long time. AM3 won't come out until DDR3 is as mainstream as DDR2 was before AMD introduced it. Intel won't be going DDR3 till when? Mid to late 07?

 

[Corasik]

AMD realise they have many platforms coming out in the next two years and that is why they make AM2-AM2+ & AM2+-AM3 chips interchangable to make the transition a bit less pain in the neck. That means AM2+ mobo will support all three generations of CPU!! I'd like to see Intel comes up with something like this!!

Buy yourself an intel BadAxe.

You can use P4's (Both 90, and 65's), P4D's, Core 2 Duo's, and it can also run Core 2 Quads. So thats 5 varients on 1 motherboard.

The main reasons older 775's dont support newer chips is not the socket, or even the chipset, but simply the voltage regulators dont have low enough voltaget settings for the newer processors. Just look at the boards that AsRock make. Some of them use almost prehistoric northbridges, and yet they have still 'hacked in' conroe support.

 

[snowdog]

Would you rather see advancements in CPU tech stand still? If AMD had stayed with socket 754, then we wouldnt be running dual channel....
You also seem to be forgetting, Intel does kinda do a similar thing... Ok, socket format stays the same but you try getting a Core2 to run in one of the original 775 boards. Not a chance.

But anyway, to get back on the topic of the thread.... OMG AMD what the HELL are you playing at you bunch of n00bs... You're gonna loose sales cos of this... Dell's gonna dump you cos you keep switching sockets, and EVERYONES gonna be confused as to what works with what.

I never said i wnat old mobo's to work with new cpu's, i want new mobos to work with old cpu's.

What the hell has socket have to do with dual channel they could release socket 754 cpu's with dual channel controller too, if old cpu input then mem would run on single, if newer cpu it would run double, simple enough...

As said same socket doesn't mean you don't have to change mobo!! I still have a P4 520 rig with 915P chipset, I got it right after Intel released LGA775, thought it would be future proof but guess what, it wouldn't even take 65nm P4s let alone dual cores!! At least 939 can support dual core chips with a simple BIOS update.

As i said above kind of: i want to upgrade mobo w/o needing new cpu, not other way around, so i can upgarde in steps, instead of spend hundreds at once, amd disables the ability to ( intel example) when 1st having a pentium 4, buying a new mainboard for it after 3 months, to upgarde to a core 2 duo in 6 months (sue pentium in meantime), if i'd have a 754 im forced to buy a s939 mobo & cpu at ocne, instead of just a mobo 1st and later a new cpu...

I agree socket a was good, but once 754 changed to 939 in such a short time, forcing people to upgrade mobo& cpu, instead of just mobo and cpu a year after or something, i staretd to hate them for that, even hate them more for am2, could just make a memory controller wich works both with ddr 1 & 2.


The thing is with intel, if a centrain type of mobo doesnt support something, you just need a mobo with a newer chipset ( for example for dual channel ram).
With a64, new cpu ( new socket) and new mainboard, instead of just a new mainboard...


Now if i wanted to go core 2 duo, i can get a new mobo imemdiatly, get all the new features etc ( xfire for example), and buy cpu when i get the money...
With a a64 i'd be stuck with my old mobo & cpu till i have money to get them both...

I highly encourage both intel& amd , to stick to same socket as much as possible, so i can get a new mobo and upgrade in 2 steps, insteald of in 1...



What i'm saying is: current s939 mobo's should work with old 754 mobo's
Same with am2 and 939, should all be one socket, the difference and limit should be in the mainboard and its features, not the socket type...

 

[steve258]

Buy yourself an intel BadAxe.

You can use P4's (Both 90, and 65's), P4D's, Core 2 Duo's, and it can also run Core 2 Quads. So thats 5 varients on 1 motherboard.

The main reasons older 775's dont support newer chips is not the socket, or even the chipset, but simply the voltage regulators dont have low enough voltaget settings for the newer processors. Just look at the boards that AsRock make. Some of them use almost prehistoric northbridges, and yet they have still 'hacked in' conroe support.

True.

But will it also support future chips that are coming out in the next year or two?? If you think about it an AM2 mobo will be able to support:

A64 & X2 (both 90nm & 65nm)
AM2+ Spica (Single core K8L)
AM2+ Arcturus (Dual core K8L no L3 cache)
AM2+ Antares (Dual core K8L w. 2mb shared L3)
AM2+ Altair (Quad-core K8L)

Plus possibly AM3 varients as well. Upgrade path can't get anymore clearer than that?? Not sure though cuz different websites are saying different things so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Not being an AMD fanboy here but I don't see why it's such a bad thing, socket is the same on all three the only thing different is the chipset, nothing more than Intel's changes in chipsets from 915P/925P - 945P/955P to 965P/975P over the past 2-3 years.

 

[Kamakazie!]

I never said i wnat old mobo's to work with new cpu's, i want new mobos to work with old cpu's.

What the hell has socket have to do with dual channel they could release socket 754 cpu's with dual channel controller too, if old cpu input then mem would run on single, if newer cpu it would run double, simple enough...

Socket 754 did not contain enough PINS to handle DDR2. It requires a lot more pins. Socket 754 should just never have existed, everyone knew that 939 was gonna come out a short while later and so they should have just gone to that. Incidentally, you have been able to get Socket 754 CPU's for a good long while after the A64's went top 939 as Semprons used the socket for ages.

As i said above kind of: i want to upgrade mobo w/o needing new cpu, not other way around, so i can upgarde in steps, instead of spend hundreds at once, amd disables the ability to ( intel example) when 1st having a pentium 4, buying a new mainboard for it after 3 months, to upgarde to a core 2 duo in 6 months (sue pentium in meantime), if i'd have a 754 im forced to buy a s939 mobo & cpu at ocne, instead of just a mobo 1st and later a new cpu...

Why so much about 745 & 939? Thats 2 socket revisions. What about all the rest?
Socket A lasted for YEARS. Socket AM2 will also last for years, with a similar upgrade path to what you are asking for, except it will work over 3 revisions and TWO types of memory (you wont get that with intel).
Taking what the article says:
AM2 mobo : AM2 cpu
AM2 mobo : AM2+ cpu
AM2+ mobo : AM2+ cpu
AM3 mobo : AM2+ cpu

And if AMD are good to their word then you would be able to keep the AM2 CPU all the way up till the AM3 mobo. There is a perfect upgrade path for you that looks ahead probably over 3 years and spans 2 types of memory.

I agree socket a was good, but once 754 changed to 939 in such a short time, forcing people to upgrade mobo& cpu, instead of just mobo and cpu a year after or something, i staretd to hate them for that, even hate them more for am2, could just make a memory controller wich works both with ddr 1 & 2.

As said above, DDR1 and DDR2 are not pin compatible (DDR2 & DDR3 are however hence why you will see a memory controller that supports both).

The thing is with intel, if a centrain type of mobo doesnt support something, you just need a mobo with a newer chipset ( for example for dual channel ram).
With a64, new cpu ( new socket) and new mainboard, instead of just a new mainboard...

You didn't need a new mobo to go from A64 to A64 X2. You won't need a new mobo to go from A64 X2 to the Barcelona X2 or X4 either.

Now if i wanted to go core 2 duo, i can get a new mobo imemdiatly, get all the new features etc ( xfire for example), and buy cpu when i get the money...
With a a64 i'd be stuck with my old mobo & cpu till i have money to get them both...

I highly encourage both intel& amd , to stick to same socket as much as possible, so i can get a new mobo and upgrade in 2 steps, insteald of in 1...

If you want to go A64 you can get the mobo immediatly and use it with a cheap single core A64 then get an X2 when you like and even a X4 in the future. This upgrading in steps. With this all possible until AFTER DDR3 is released. Get a C2D now and you will need a new mobo AND cpu to use DDR3 unless they come up with a northbridge that supports both.


Whilst i agree that it seem like a lot of sockets, each one brings something incremental and doesn't stop backwards compatibility. AM3 should not really be on the list for a fair comparison. AM2 and AM2+ are AMDs ONLY DDR2 sockets. Out of interest, how many has intel had?

 

[snowdog]

quote As said above, DDR1 and DDR2 are not pin compatible (DDR2 & DDR3 are however hence why you will see a memory controller that supports both).
/quote



Yes so, make both sockets into a mainboard, i renember i had a mobo with 4 dddr-2 slots and 2 ddr-1 slots form asus something with 915 chipset, sohuld be perfectly possible for amd too...

You're talking about am2 etc.. but where i live am2 is totally not into the market yet ( well its sellable, but no one buys it), ppl either go c2d or 939 here, anyhow am2 and future isnt thr biggest prob, im just annoyed by amd by 754to939to am2, sohuld all be into one socket (with just cpu's upgraded with newer ram controller, i just dont like buying new mainboards...) ( perfectly capable makign a ddr1 and 2 mobo and just keep 1 socket...)

 

[manveruppd]

Socket A lasted for YEARS. Socket AM2 will also last for years, with a similar upgrade path to what you are asking for, except it will work over 3 revisions and TWO types of memory (you wont get that with intel).
Taking what the article says:
AM2 mobo : AM2 cpu
AM2 mobo : AM2+ cpu
AM2+ mobo : AM2+ cpu
AM3 mobo : AM2+ cpu

And if AMD are good to their word then you would be able to keep the AM2 CPU all the way up till the AM3 mobo. There is a perfect upgrade path for you that looks ahead probably over 3 years and spans 2 types of memory.

But that's no kind of upgrade! You won't get anything by upgrading to an AM3 mobo if you keep your AM2 CPU! You want to be able to buy a single decent motherboard and upgrade to faster CPUs as their price drops! Sure, your average massmarket joe won't even know what the inside of his PC looks like so they'll upgrade the whole box in one go, but your enthusiast WILL want to upgrade to a faster CPU that he couldn't afford a year ago when it was the fastest chip available and was going for >£500! With Socket A, S939, and even Intel's S775, you had a massive upgrade path from the lowest-rated processor on the socket up to its highest. Sure, this is to an extent theoretical, as early S775 boards don't support Conroe, Socket A didn't come in DDR400 flavours in the first wave of mobos so putting in a top-of-the-line XP3200+ would mean it would be gimped if it would even work at all, and even S939 boards had memory management problems early on. It's therefore always been wise to wait for the second wave of boards to give a socket time to mature. Under AMD's roadmap, however, the boards simply won't have the time to do that, as board manufacturers will have to bring out their AM2+ flavours before they've had time to sort out the problems with AM2, and then start working on the AM3s as soon as AM2+ is out! Therefore, AMD is effectively slapping on a £100 premium to each CPU upgrade you do, as you'd need to change boards as well as chips: to not do so would mean you're gimping your shiny new processor by forcing it to run with its latest features disabled.
To add insult to injury, it's the specific features that are of most interest to the enthusiast that will be gimped: split-voltage in AM2+, and HT3.0 in AM3, both of which will presumably be very beneficial to overclocking.

I have high hopes that AMD's future CPUs will be able to give Conroe a run for its money, but their strategy with rolling out a different platform for each CPU upgrade just makes them an uneconomical solution for the medium-term.

 

[Kamakazie!]

quote As said above, DDR1 and DDR2 are not pin compatible (DDR2 & DDR3 are however hence why you will see a memory controller that supports both).
/quote


Yes so, make both sockets into a mainboard, i renember i had a mobo with 4 dddr-2 slots and 2 ddr-1 slots form asus something with 915 chipset, sohuld be perfectly possible for amd too...

No, they are not pin compatible at the CPU end afaik. Even if they are, you want a mobo with 8 dimms on it? that is ridiculous. The board would have to be very large or miss out on other features that you would expect from a high end board.

But that's no kind of upgrade! You won't get anything by upgrading to an AM3 mobo if you keep your AM2 CPU! You want to be able to buy a single decent motherboard and upgrade to faster CPUs as their price drops! Sure, your average massmarket joe won't even know what the inside of his PC looks like so they'll upgrade the whole box in one go, but your enthusiast WILL want to upgrade to a faster CPU that he couldn't afford a year ago when it was the fastest chip available and was going for >£500! With Socket A, S939, and even Intel's S775, you had a massive upgrade path from the lowest-rated processor on the socket up to its highest. Sure, this is to an extent theoretical, as early S775 boards don't support Conroe, Socket A didn't come in DDR400 flavours in the first wave of mobos so putting in a top-of-the-line XP3200+ would mean it would be gimped if it would even work at all, and even S939 boards had memory management problems early on. It's therefore always been wise to wait for the second wave of boards to give a socket time to mature. Under AMD's roadmap, however, the boards simply won't have the time to do that, as board manufacturers will have to bring out their AM2+ flavours before they've had time to sort out the problems with AM2, and then start working on the AM3s as soon as AM2+ is out! Therefore, AMD is effectively slapping on a £100 premium to each CPU upgrade you do, as you'd need to change boards as well as chips: to not do so would mean you're gimping your shiny new processor by forcing it to run with its latest features disabled.
To add insult to injury, it's the specific features that are of most interest to the enthusiast that will be gimped: split-voltage in AM2+, and HT3.0 in AM3, both of which will presumably be very beneficial to overclocking.

I have high hopes that AMD's future CPUs will be able to give Conroe a run for its money, but their strategy with rolling out a different platform for each CPU upgrade just makes them an uneconomical solution for the medium-term.

But you can upgrade to a faster CPU with the AM2 mobo. You will be able to use Quad core Barcelona cores in it, and, if AMD stick to what they have said before... AM3 CPU's which is the revision after Barcelona (K8L) due in 2008.
Yes it will be slightly gimped (if any one is actually maxing out the HT link at the moment, which i doubt even with a quad core) but then just look at AM2+ as a socket revision, in which case the CPU won't be gimped and will run AM3 cpu's at full speed less the DDR3 ram support.

I agree it could have been a bit less messy. If they had implemented the ability for AM2 to have a faster HT link, then it would negate the need for AM2+. However, for even enthusiasts, i doubt the current HT link is even close to being maxed out, so not having double the speed will matter little if you use an AM2+ cpu on an AM2 board.


All this is presuming that The Inquirer is reporting correctly. As much as i like reading their articles and see that a fair bit of what they report is quite accurate, a lot is also complete rubbish and changes on a weekly basis.
AMD have said that AM2 motherobards will be compatible with AM3 cpus (DDR3 and HT3.0) where as this article says they wont be. If AMD keep to their word then that means you can buy a mobo now and it will support top of the line AMD CPUs until well in to 2008. That IS a long lived socket and a very good upgrade path. If the Article is correct then you will stil be able to upgrade to AM2+ cpus (DDR2 and HT3.0) which will be around till at least 2008. I don't see the problem.