AMD Zen3 event thread

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Perhaps I'm just not as easily impressed as most on here then?

To impress me enough to part with money would require a CPU company to release a 8c/16t chip that is faster at everything, than my current 8c16t CPU (3700X) for the same price as it was released at.

I can't make it any more simpler than that.

A lot of the AMD subreddit isn't happy. Most of my mates have just gone meh,and will just stick with what they have for longer. Maybe AMD is trying to Jebait us,and will drop pricing before the reviews?

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Its a $100 penalty as this is the 3600 replacement and shares the same TDP which the 3600X does not.

It also has the same low end Wraith Stealth cooler as the Ryzen 5 3600 and Ryzen 3 3200G. The 65W TDP Ryzen 7 3700X was $330 with a Wraith Prism RGB cooler. The Ryzen 5 5600X is only $30 less but with a cooler 2 to 3 tiers lower. The Wraith Stealth also runs quite warm too.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I love the double standards on display here. Intel and Nvidia increase prices and change tiers,they are terrible and greedy anti-consumer companies which rip off customers. The amount here who criticised Nvidia for Turing and mocked Intel for the Core i9,etc. AMD does the same,that is all fine,no problem.

It was like the price defence force who defended Nvidia when it started all its £1000 Titans,etc even though many of us said it would eventually warp the market upwards.

Years later it happened,and many of those experts went quiet. Its like voting to make yourself worse off.

So I expect the people defending AMD,will never criticise Intel and Nvidia again,if they start doing stuff like Turing,etc.Apparently consumers serve companies not companies serve the interests of consumers.

Honestly I think our government needs to ask Intel,AMD and Nvidia marketing for some tips. People are asking for these companies to charge them more - imagine if the government could get people to ask them to charge more tax? I am sure that would help the government coffers!

I too am annoyed they didn’t hit the price points I wanted, but ultimately it will affect me less than Amd as I won’t buy and they’ll get nothing from me rather than something.

They are pulling a fast one with this launch and I don’t like it. I can only hope it’s more to do with the amount they can supply early on, I don’t mind them profiting off impatient early adopters but that price needs to come down.

Agreed. At least three people I know around me have decided to skip Zen3,and stick with what they have,or get something cheaper. I will just stick with what I have. Consumers don't exist to prop up companies(especially foreign ones which don't contribute much to the UK economy).

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Just look at all the disappointment on Reddit for a more representative (I hope) view of this launch.

AMD Reddit has a ton of vocal AMD users,who are not happy about this. Maybe AMD will reduce the price closer to launch, and say it was their marketing plan all along to Jebait Intel.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Also people have forgotten Intel was ahead of AMD in gaming generally. It was just AMD offered more of an ecosystem and more cores for the same price. Now they have decided to charge more than Intel per core,because they might be slightly ahead. The Ryzen 5 5600X is now £40 more expensive than a Core i5 10600K(can be had for under £250). The Ryzen 7 5800X looks to be around £80~£90 more expensive than a Core i7 10700K(is available for under £350) and now does not have a cooler.

The problem with this is if Intel's next 6C and 8C CPUs are competitive in gaming performance,they will also price them higher. Sure AMD can do 12C and 16C,but if their own 6C and 8C CPUs are priced upto £430,then its not going to matter for most gamers.

AMD are not using the ability to use sell more cores effectively to pressure Intel.

At this rate,we will end up with 6C being the new 4C,because we won't be finding any new CPU releases under £300 then having an 8C CPU. AMD and Intel will just use more cores as a way to push the upper price band upwards just like Nvidia did with the Titan.

I'm don't feel like I'm being shafted by them because I'm not buying!

We all have our own reasoning behind purchasing something. I have set in stone criteria before I part with my cash on my PC. For example, for me to upgrade my cpu (3700x) it would take an 8c/16t (or higher) CPU (from any company, i couldn't care less who makes it) that is decently faster (+10-20% I'd call decent) for the same price I paid for the 3700x.

If one doesn't exist, then I don't buy. So the new 5000 series Ryzens, currently only meet 1 out of 2 of my criteria - the performance is there, but the price isn't, so it's a no deal from me!

That's how I pretty much deal with upgrading my PC (in regards to CPU/GPU's) I'm not loyal to any manufacturer, brand or retailer.

This!

$50 off 5900x and 5600x will make them very attractive. 5800x probably $75 too dear. i still think there will be discount during the sales season.

We will see!

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

It does not look better value for me just going by AMD slides. The issue is AMD is using official Intel RRPs in its slides,but actual street prices are much lower. The Core i5 10600K is faster in pure gaming than any AMD CPU currently(check the GN review),and is £40 cheaper than a Ryzen 5 5600X. Its even worse for the Ryzen 7 5800X. It costs £85 more than a Core i7 10700K and does not even have a cooler included anymore.

The worst thing is that for many of us Intel wasn't worth it over AMD anyway,even if it was faster. This is why the Ryzen CPUs have sold well. This is why there is such a backlash on Reddit. People didn't like the Intel prices. Now AMD is going past Intel pricing,and validating it.

On top of this AMD hinted at a Ryzen 9 5900XT and Ryzen 9 5950XT. So there is probably a pricer Ryzen 7 5800XT in the wings.

Plus the problem is since AMD has now made sure it will charge nearly £450 for its 8C CPU,what happens if Intel early next year releases 8C Rocketlake and it is slightly faster in gaming?? Intel will also push their price up.

Have people learnt nothing from Nvidia and AMD slowly pushing up GPU pricing over the last 6 years??

People seem to forget Intel has been stuck on Skylake for 5 years and its taken 4 generations of Zen releases to bypass the ringbus Intel Skylake CPUs in gaming. Intel will go from Skylake to Willow Cove in one generation,bypassing Icelake and Sunny Cove together. IIRC,Intel already managed to bypass Zen2 in IPC with one of its newer mobile cores.

So that is a 3 generation IPC jump,and we all know Intel can still clock these CPUs quite high.

That means we will be stuck at 6C under £300 for years at this rate,and 8C will be back to being a premium option. We will be going backwards in core progression at the mainstream.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

AMD almost always price their GPUs lower than Nvidia yet only 20% buy them. The other 80% bought the more expensive Nvidia GPU. Surely psychology has something to do with it? Higher price = more sales? I dont know. AMD's CPU competitor have always been more expensive yet got more sales. Higher priced tech does seem to get more sales.

ATI frequently was much cheaper than Nvidia(sometimes they weren't),yet seemed to never hit such lows in sales shares.

The problem is since AMD said they "didn't want to be the budget brand" its backfired. With Polaris,they managed to be reasonably priced but got decent share. With Navi AMD lost sales share!

The Radeon 7 was worse value than the GTX1080TI. The RX5700XT was originally branded the RX680/RX690. They then saw the RTX2070 price and rebranded it with a higher price. Then Nvidia released the RTX2070 Super and RTX2060 Super and AMD was forced to reduce pricing. On top of this the RX5700XT stock cooler was terrible,and AMD managed to mess up drivers after launch too for a number of people.

Then having not learnt anything,they launched the RX5600XT. It was targetted towards the GTX1660TI as being slightly faster and a bit more expensive. Yet AMD had seemingly forgotten the GTX1660 Super had made the GTX1660TI pointless, or Nvidia could drop the RTX2060 price. So then they rushed out the overclock BIOS for the RX5600XT,which was a disaster. Then the less said about the RX5500XT the better. The GTX1650 Super was better value. Polaris was better value.

So no wonder AMD sales share went down - they were barely cheaper than Nvidia,had crap launches,crap coolers and driver problems. Nvidia also had RTX,etc which AMD lacked too. By the time AMD had fixed the problems,they had to push prices down as they were not selling. The sad thing is they are all reasonable GPUs,but AMD just lost track of the finer details.

Looking at Intel vs AMD over the last year I would doubt that since AMD massively outsold Intel in the enthusiast market as people preferred the cheaper CPUs even over the more powerful and "expensive" Intel equivalents with CPUs like the 3600 and 3700X driving huge sales.

If you look at all the sales share metrics,its the sub £300 area which is doing the best in sales.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Doesn't this contradict what we know about how these companies like to do business?

There's a reason Intel didn't just put out 1 super expensive chip while they were ahead as they make more money by having a range of processors available, hitting all the price points. The worst thing to happen for them would be serious competition as that eats into their profit margins.

So they can't just go for ever higher price as they'll actually lose more money in the process...

Look what happened with GPU prices. 10 years ago a top GPU was under £500 but now its £1500. Instead all you have is the same range of products,but with a wider range of tiers. This is what Intel did,they tiered everything and made you pay for every feature.
Since its only two vendors for X86 CPUs in the DIY market,if both decide to slowly increase prices,as long as something is available in the lower price points it will be enough for them. So both could literally just decide between both of them to only selling quad cores below £200.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Yeah all this roadmap **** started years and years ago. The conveyor belt is designed to just milk it each tick-tock. People got used to just accepting ~20% IPC increase etc its everyone's fault for letting that be the norm.

That is the problem people are not understanding. Adding £50~£100 each generation just because its faster,will start to add up within a generation or two. Zen4 will outperform Zen3,so instead of £300 for the Ryzen 5 6600X 6C,it will be £350. Then the Ryzen 5 6600 non-X will be £300. Intel will be quite happy to also do the same. Then they can sell 4C/8T CPUs under £300,because the 4C new generation is faster than the old 6C CPUs,etc and we are back to where we were 5 years ago,where anything more than 4C is at a premium.

This is what has been slowly happening with GPUs. Smaller and smaller chips sold for higher and higher prices. Both companies are happy not to push each other. We ended up with what was considered midrange die sizes being sold for enthusiast level pricing,and margins went sky high.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Agree.

I got an 8 core back in 2013 as I needed an upgrade from my aging C2D setup. I know the progression and improvements etc but the 8 core back then cost me £100. With all the components creeping up as you say, look at the GPU's too, I had a top end 290x for just over £300 now that wont even get you an average mid range GPU.

People have not learnt a single thing about what happened with GPUs,or Intel doing the same thing with CPUs. The worst thing is they target DIY builders as "high value" markets,ie,"high margin". Then they sell their CPUs and GPUs at much lower cost to OEMs. Intel spent billions literally giving away Atom CPUs to OEMs,whilst they were happily milking DIY builders with overpriced quad cores for years. Nvidia did the same with Tegra,made losses on that,but quite happily were milking gamers.So for years we were helping non-enthusiasts get cheaper tablets.

You can literally get an 8C AMD laptop for just over £600. Renoir is around 150MM2 in size on 7NM. A Zen2 CPU uses a 70MM2 chiplet,and the I/O die is made on a cheap GF process. Zen3 is unlikely to cost much more either. So Renoir is being sold at much lower margins. The consoles are being sold at lower margins. They jack up pricing on our parts to subsidise their OEM sales,and purchases of companies such as Xilinx.

Yet gamers/DIY builders think they actually owe these companies something - we owe them nothing,because quite clearly they are happy to drop prices for other sectors. We basically have to eat cake.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

What

I was paraphrasing "Let them eat cake".

Although some cake would be nice quite now!

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

all Intel needs to do now is price drop the 10600k to £200 and the 10700k to £300 and it's game over for AMD as the majority would go for those CPUs just like how people went with the lower performing but cheaper zen 2 and if AMD then had to cut prices on their new top performing chips to compete it would be rather embarrassing.

Intel could literally release a BIOS update which allows XMP RAM speeds on its B and H series motherboards. That means the non-K models could run full speed RAM,and that would make them more competitive. ATM,you can get a Core i5 10400F for £40 cheaper than a Ryzen 5 3600. It is mainly hampered by needing a Z series motherboard to run RAM at XMP settings.

Pretty much why I get annoyed when people nonchalantly buy products like 2080Ti's and other 'gaming' products that are overpriced, they are without realising it causing the companies to turn up the dial and set to 'OK they still are paying this lets keep notching it up' lol.

I found it ironic people on here were defending Nvidia and Intel price rises and tierisation,whilst both of them were giving away billions of dollars of SOCs to tablet OEMs. So that £100 tablet someone got from Tesco,was partially subsidised by gamers paying through the nose for DIY parts. Looks like we are this time helping AMD subsidise the consoles,as they can offset lower semi-custom margins with higher DIY and gamer margins. How nice PCMR is helping its console cousins!

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

The problem is if price goes up because of performance then we be in the same boat as Gpu's soon.

3600 £200 at launch, so are we getting the 3600 at the same price again this launch, I will look at 3900x for around 320.

Agreed. All the people justifying price increases have learnt absolutely nothing from what happened with GPUs. People argued to the end the GPU price increases were fine,then years later when the damage was done suddenly went all quiet. Funny how many of the same attacked Intel and Nvidia for jacking up pricing and segmenting things.

in a global pandemic these companies should be ashamed of themselves.

Be ashamed of all the enthusiasts who are defending this like they defended GPU price rises. Also many rallied against Intel and Nvidia price rises too so double standards. It's people like them who are the main reason companies think they can do such things.

To put it in context AMD Reddit which has some of the most pro AMD people out there has been very negative about the price rises. A number here are defending it, which says volumes. This is is basically a Turing level move. Jack prices up so you can deplete older stock at full price - many Ryzen CPUs such as the Ryzen 5 3600 have increased in price(not the 6C Core i5 CPUs). Then maintain the new generation at a higher price until the competition makes a move.

Basically, unless AMD is trying some Jebaiting pricing moves,you will need to wait until Rocketlake S for them to alter pricing significantly.

if you could get a 3600 for £145 or less as it was early this year, that is 1/2 the price of 5600x for what? 20% less performance? Could put the extra £145 on a better gpu or just save it for the next upgrade/build. 5600x is really just terrible value.

It is and cunning how the Ryzen 5 3600 is now nearly £200 and now nearly £40 more than the Intel Core i5 10400F. In the end pretty much everyone I know who was considering Zen3 have decided to hang onto what they have,or to consider something else.

Let's see if AMD says they were Jebaiting everyone and reduces the price in some way,and say it was their plan all along.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

@Th0nt You are right on the money. Many of the marketing strategists and money men seem to jump from jump from one company to another.