And the madness continues

stewski said:
Is the same line of thinking true for any stupid law in any Country unlikely to change soon?
Public stoning for Adultery in Saudi for example may be unlikely to change, are our complaints about it naive/misplaced?
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not really, but I'm sure you could argue for 5 pages about this...

it isn't a law but an amendment to the constitution, rather harder to change than a law, especially given that there isn't really significant will to change it and there are already so many firearms in circulation
 
and this is why I keep coming back to OCUK. Lots of people on here believe anything you say lol some of the replies on here are amazing

anyways, this would not have happened had the two 3yr olds been armed

"guns dont kill people, people do" ok, I mean well...erm, had they had nerf guns nobody would have died but hey, that's the slogan so.....

at least kinder eggs are banned over there so they are not that stupid
 
I'm not describing a direct complaint about American gun law as misplaced or naive. I would say that of anyone arguing that the second amendment is going away any time soon - that would be very naive.

It isn't bizarre at all to point out that a constitutional amendment is a bit more than just a law, in particular when referring to the prospects of changing it - the process isn't so easy.
 
dowie said:
I'm not describing a direct complaint about American gun law as misplaced or naive. I would say that of anyone arguing that the second amendment is going away any time soon - that would be very naive.

It isn't bizarre at all to point out that a constitutional amendment is a bit more than just a law, in particular when referring to the prospects of changing it - the process isn't so easy.
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I haven't seen anyone say that the second amendment (or public stoning in Saudi) are going away soon, we do complain about them, but then we are civilized.

As for the distinction of the laws and relative difficulty of change (of obviously stupid laws) or the, "but we've always done it this way" are all zero defence against complaining at their idiotic natures!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-heffernan/lets-amend-the-second-ame_b_10599266.html
 
The relative difficulty of changing an amendment is pretty relevant here not to mention the lack of sufficient desire to change it in the first place and the rather obvious issue of the massive quantities of guns already in ownership.... but carry on sticking your head in the sand if you like:

http://news.gallup.com/poll/108394/americans-agreement-supreme-court-gun-rights.aspx

The Supreme Court's ruling on Thursday that a District of Columbia ban on handgun ownership is unconstitutional appears to be solidly in step with public opinion. A clear majority of the U.S. public -- 73% -- believes the Second Amendment to the Constitution guarantees the rights of Americans to own guns. And almost 7 out of 10 Americans are opposed to a law that would make the possession of a handgun illegal, except by the police.
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The more realistic options are things like laws re: the storage of firearms, when and where they can be carried, how they are sold (removing gun show loop holes etc...) etc..
 
stewski said:
You are making an bizarre distinction between law and constitution.
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AFAIK he is making a distinction between federal law versus state law versus constitution (and then you have things like the supremacy clause) - its kind of complex in the US :s
 
dowie said:
Realistically they're not getting rid of guns or the second amendment any time soon so complaints about that still existing are rather naive/misplaced - guns are a reality now in America and will be for the foreseeable future. What they could do however is have some stricter laws regarding the sale and storage of firearms.



LOL what? While the TV license is a farce I'm not sure trying to compare that with toddlers getting easy access to guns and shooting each other is really in any way a reasonable comparisons.
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The only reason that toddler got hold of the gun is because the person was retarded and didn't put it away, either carry it or lock it up in a gun safe.
 
See this is why america needs gun control, not as the rednecks would have you beleive so "the man" can take their guns, but to stop them ending up in the hands of idiots, or more correctly in this case out of the hands of idiots and into the hands of kids.

Can they not look at europe and see that gun control works? It doesnt stop people who want to own guns and go shooting, just stops the idiots.
 
stewski said:
Semantic like the constitution being a law much like public stoning in saudi, i.e. Stupid tradition!
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That is a very gross and generalised equivalency between source/framework for common law. There is a world of difference between tradition and the US constitution.
 
adolf hamster said:
See this is why america needs gun control, not as the rednecks would have you beleive so "the man" can take their guns, but to stop them ending up in the hands of idiots, or more correctly in this case out of the hands of idiots and into the hands of kids.

Can they not look at europe and see that gun control works? It doesnt stop people who want to own guns and go shooting, just stops the idiots.
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Hand guns banned in 1997 (1000's of genuine law abiding people affected) handgun crime continues. It isn't and will never be black and white.

Saying that America is completely different to the UK where firearms are concerned. They have huge issues but seem unwilling to deal with them.

As for this incident the woman is beyond stupid having a hand gun out in view while looking after kids in her house.
 
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stewski said:
Semantic like the constitution being a law much like public stoning in saudi, i.e. Stupid tradition!
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not really, you're conflating rather different things there, the reasoning behind the post has already been explained though but as usual you want to pick a pointless argument...
 
=XDC=FluphyBunny said:
Hand guns banned in 1997 (1000's of genuine law abiding people affected) handgun crime continues. It isn't and will never be black and white.

Saying that America is completely different to the UK where firearms are concerned. They have huge issues but seem unwilling to deal with them.

As for this incident the woman is beyond stupid having a hand gun out in view while looking after kids in her house.
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Generally (and I'm largely pro-gun) I don't even see the need for handguns outside of very specific personal protection situations - for most scenarios, especially those envisaged by the second amendment, a moderately long barrelled, semi-automatic, rifle would suffice.
 
=XDC=FluphyBunny said:
Hand guns banned in 1997 (1000's of genuine law abiding people affected) handgun crime continues. It isn't and will never be black and white.

Saying that America is completely different to the UK where firearms are concerned. They have huge issues but seem unwilling to deal with them.

As for this incident the woman is beyond stupid having a hand gun out in view while looking after kids in her house.
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Depends how far we're taking that statement but they are allowed in northern ireland, as you say its not black and white. I was more making a blanket statement about shooting being a viable sport still in various european countries even with heavy regulation.

Of course it's not a hard argument that the concealability of handguns and their lack of practicality compared to longarms for traditional shooting disciplines like hunting (they can be used, but rifles are better) combined with their use in crime was a good reason to ban them. Although i beleive they are still available with some "workaround" modifications (long barrel, coathanger "stock" etc)
 
=XDC=FluphyBunny said:
Hand guns banned in 1997 (1000's of genuine law abiding people affected) handgun crime continues. It isn't and will never be black and white.

Saying that America is completely different to the UK where firearms are concerned. They have huge issues but seem unwilling to deal with them.

As for this incident the woman is beyond stupid having a hand gun out in view while looking after kids in her house.
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Very hard to get hold of a hand gun in the UK now though, ammo is even harder. Many of the hand guns still here are from before the ban and just circle around. Plus we've seen recently what happens when you wave one around, the police don't take any chances and will shoot first.
 
Tefal said:
second amendment states as "part of a well regulated malitia" i never got why they didnt just restrict gun ownership to those who were in one.

training give up X amount of time, learn manouvers etc, basically like the TA but not ran by the government



yet there is no malitia regulated or not
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The militia is "we the people", whole point of 2nd amendment is to defend against government tyranny.
 
mmj_uk said:
The militia is "we the people", whole point of 2nd amendment is to defend against government tyranny.
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Which is balls. The only tyranny they'd ever defend against would be an attempt to take their guns. The rest they'll just sit back and take it.
 
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