Another religious debate...Lilith

Wej said:
Yes! "Queen of the Demonweb Pits"

Oops, showing my age/sadness/geek credentials ;-)

EDIT: No, sorry, it was Lolth. Still, suspicious eh - can't be a coincidence!
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Yeah just looked her up in my FR campaign guide books. Lolth is correct. My uber geek credentials are now tarnished.
 
RobotXander said:
Thats what I'm not clear on. I assumed she was written out of the King James bible because of what she did, and then smeared by the church.
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LOL, no. Not even close. The Jews originally wrote the Old Testament, and they didn't put Lilith in it. She was a construct of post-exilic rabbinical speculation, most likely purloined from Babylonian mythology.

StriderX said:
Who are "us"?

:p
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The plural form of the verb has been the subject of much discussion through the years, and not surprisingly several suggestions have been put forward. Many Christian theologians interpret it as an early hint of plurality within the Godhead, but this view imposes later trinitarian concepts on the ancient text.

Some have suggested the plural verb indicates majesty, but the plural of majesty is not used with verbs. C. Westermann (Genesis, 1:145) argues for a plural of “deliberation” here, but his proposed examples of this use (2 Sam 24:14; Isa 6:8) do not actually support his theory.

In 2 Sam 24:14 David uses the plural as representative of all Israel, and in Isa 6:8 the LORD speaks on behalf of his heavenly court. In its ancient Israelite context the plural is most naturally understood as referring to God and his heavenly court (see 1 Kgs 22:19–22; Job 1:6–12; 2:1–6; Isa 6:1–8). (The most well-known members of this court are God’s messengers, or angels. In Gen 3:5 the serpent may refer to this group as “gods/divine beings.” See the note on the word “evil” in 3:5.)

If this is the case, God invites the heavenly court to participate in the creation of humankind (perhaps in the role of offering praise, see Job 38:7), but he himself is the one who does the actual creative work (v. 27). Of course, this view does assume that the members of the heavenly court possess the divine “image” in some way. Since the image is closely associated with rulership, perhaps they share the divine image in that they, together with God and under his royal authority, are the executive authority over the world.

Biblical Studies Press, The NET Bible First Edition (Biblical Studies Press, 2006).
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Here God is pictured talking to the angels, the only allusion to other supernatural beings in this chapter. This remark implies that man is like both God and the angels. (Traditionally, Christians have seen us and our to allude to the other persons of the Trinity. While this is a quite legitimate fuller interpretation, it is not the words’ primary meaning.)

New Bible Commentary: 21st Century Edition (ed. D. A. Carson et al.;, 4th ed.; Leicester, England; Downers Grove, IL: Inter-Varsity Press, 1994), Ge 1:24–31.
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Thread revival after myself searching for the word Sumerian!

THe good gentleman whom referenced the Lilith and the Hulupppa tree as Sumerian is NOT quite correct. THis subject is my balliwick and one hopes to help a tiny bit.

Gilgamesh tale and Sumerian is NOT the same.

Ill explain

BABYLONIAN. Assyrian is GILgamesh from the poem he whom saw the deep (A semetic creation) and consists of only 7 tablets.

Sumerian BILgames^ Sumerian and deals with the DEATH and after life of which the MUCH later semetic version never deals with.
Consists of Eleven Tablets.

Point two: In the Sumerian Original of BILgames^ there is not a sinlge mention of the Hulupappa tree.

Point three the Lilith thing is PARTIALLY accurate, however the name Lilith is NOT Sumerian is is actually a much much later Hebrew name. If you wish to look for a 'Lilith' in either Sumerian or Babylonian myth then your gaze is better directed to the name LILI-TU meaning dark-wind.

She is actually a part of the group called the Ardut-Lilli. She is not a wife nor a mother, she has not known happiness.......
The ardut-lili whom is often reffered in magical texts, seem to have SOme affinaties with the Jewish Lilith.

As for the original question being..............."Was she just written out for being an upity bird/future demon and killer of children? "

The children thing was actually denonted to the demon called Lamshtu or Lams^tu if we wish to write it correctly (Babylonian demon) the counter to this was the Demon of the grain and fields called Pazuzzu.

Now in Sumerian and Babylonian religious iconography the bird wings where usually swept downwards as an indicator of a demon or a goddess of death and 'Kur' like Erishkigal. In addition they had clawed feet, also an indicator of Erishkigal or a demon.

However Erishkigal was reffered to as a goddess as she held a crown of horns and the pikka and mikku (hoop and rod) where were signs of divinity.

It is quite fascinating this subject as it gives you a glimpse into the MINDS of the ancient mesopotamians.....
For example
There was non of this good-v-evil pile of rubbish that we have in the west. The Mesopotamian faught FIre with fire so a Sumerian or Babylonian priest would not think TWICE about calling another demon in order to cast out the first..............A later form of this was the 52 Ancient Assyrian MAQLU text tablets ,which the LORDS prayer is a dirivative of and essentially the lords prayer is a hebrew COPY of the Assyrian MAQLU EXCORISISM texts:) oR shoul;d we call it in its PROPER spelling the MAKLU texts:)



The Texts of the Maqlu Series
In Conversion and First Plate of the Series Maqlu

Conjuration. I call to you, gods of the night,
together with you, I call to the night, to the covered (?) woman;
I call at night, at midnight, in the morning.
because the wizard (female) has charmed me,
The witch has put me under her spell,
my god and my goddess mourn over me.
Because my sickness (?) painfully plagues me,
I stand upright, neither night nor day do I lay down,
They have filled my mouth with strings,
with upuntu-herb they have stuffed my mouth.
They have reduced the water in my drinks;
my jubilation is lamentation, my joy is sorrow.
Rise, great gods, hear my lamenting,
enforce my right (do me justice), acknowledge my transformation!
I have constructed a picture of my wizard and my wizard (female),
of my witch master and my witch.
I have laid down at your feet and brought forth my lament:
because they have done bad (wrong), they were keen to do that which is unclean,
may they die (each of them); I shall live!
May their magic, their witchcraft, their poison (?) Be dissolved;
.... release me, the disgusting nature (offensiveness) of the mouth may dissolve in the wind!
May the mastakal-herb, of which the earth is full, cleanse me!
May GIS.SE.SA.KU, of which the grain is full, release me!
In front of you I want to shine like the KANKAL-herb,
I want to be sparkling clean like the lardu-herb.
Disastrous is the conjuration of the wizard (female):
let her words return to her mouth, let her tongue be cut off:


Sources, #

George, Andrew, Gilgamesh poetry in translation (all three versions Assyrian ,Babylonian and Sumerian) penquin books.

Kramer, S.N History Begins at Sumer

Jackonsen T The Harps that once........ Sumerian poetry in Translation.

Dickin, Alan Pagan Trinity, Holy Trinity the Legacy of the Sumerians in Western Civilisation.

Crawford, Harriet, Sumer and the Sumerians

Jakobsen T Gods Demons and Symbols of ancient Mesoptamia

Finally on the transliterations

Volk Konrad, A Sumerian Reader

Read and transliteration of Cuneiform albeit Assyrian but pointing back to Sumerian sources:
Scnell D.C A workbook of Cuneiform Signs

I am very very Ba-As^ (Ancient assyrian meaning to be ashamed) of reviving this thread however when I saw this and given my background in Sumerology I had to set the record straight.


Cheers for bearing with me

Frost-Dragon
 
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[FnG]magnolia;26766392 said:
She was pretty rad in Dragon Age. So angry yet alluring like all the best 2D girls are.
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Buwahah.

I think you have it mate:)

You will find wether in computer games, films and other genres, when they really wantt o give something an air of a time before time, the always pick Sumerian:D

Which is kind of odd,,,,,,as teh word SUMER is not southern Iraqi at all. It is actually an ASSYRIAN word, uttered by King Ashurnpanippal when he was essnetially bragging on how many langauges he could speak.

The real name for 'Sumer' as what those same Sumerians called themselves, was KI-EN-GIR (THe blackheaded Ones)
 
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