Another supplements thread:

[Morba]

As it's your first order use my code of MP5500 for a further 5% off

I was scrolling down the thread to see if anyone had actually given him a code, took 11 posts
im shocked

Jeff, i do agree that people should know as much as possible about what they are putting into their bodies, but there is no need to go ott.

in a lot of cases, there cannot be long term studies, as a good amount of supplements have only been on the market for a short period.
something to remember, everything was new to the market at some point. its about which company you trust and believe in, along with some decent self research which will help you make the right decisions.

 

[Jeffstar]

I didn't feel as though my post was ott morba, i just wish to warn people of the real potential dangers of taking un researched supplements. I personally don't think its wise or neccessary to be taking a cocktail of highly concentrated plant extracts or whatever. It seems to me that some bodybuilders are so desperate to gain muscle that they'll swallow anything. If you ask me, its all placebo effect anyway.

What happens in years to come if people start developing cancers, tumours, heart problems etc or whatever and research proves that taking a certain supplement has caused it? Some supplements have already been withdrawn from the market because of dangerous side effects.

I just feel that someone needs to point out the potential dangers

 

[Morba]

I just feel that someone needs to point out the potential dangers

which is not a bad thing :]
its good to have people who mention things like going and researching things before taking them.

 

[Jeffstar]

which is not a bad thing :]
its good to have people who mention things like going and researching things before taking them.

Thanks morba, discussion is good

 

[Jeffstar]

More info here on glucosamine/Chondroitin supplementation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/e..._uids=16495392&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum

Looks like another supplements scam then.

In my opinion, supplements are a waste of time, money and faith.

 

[Morba]

More info here on glucosamine/Chondroitin supplementation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/e..._uids=16495392&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum

Looks like another supplements scam then.

In my opinion, supplements are a waste of time, money and faith.

interesting points from that:

- Exploratory analyses suggest that the combination of glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate may be effective in the subgroup of patients with moderate-to-severe knee pain

- The mean age of the patients was 59 years, and 64 percent were women

- Overall, glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate were not significantly better than placebo in reducing knee pain by 20 percent.

now the first one seems to imply that there is some good to come from these supplements.
the 2nd point kind of makes the test irrelevent to the sort of usage that will be had by bodybuilders.
the 3rd point is the most important one.

 

[FeFiDoh]

Dont know if anyone else said it yet but ya forearms hurting, you finding it does more on curls than anything else? Fair to often and me included at one point would curl and have wrists facing into my forearms a bit this puts huge pressure on the forearms when curling. Keep wrists neutral and dont curl in when lifting to take strain away from forearms.

 

[Jeffstar]

interesting points from that:

- Exploratory analyses suggest that the combination of glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate may be effective in the subgroup of patients with moderate-to-severe knee pain

- The mean age of the patients was 59 years, and 64 percent were women

- Overall, glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate were not significantly better than placebo in reducing knee pain by 20 percent.

now the first one seems to imply that there is some good to come from these supplements.
the 2nd point kind of makes the test irrelevent to the sort of usage that will be had by bodybuilders.
the 3rd point is the most important one.

It always amazes me how easily some people believe in these pills and powders, even without scientific backing. Bodybuilders seem to be especially vulnerable.

Here's some of the tactics used to get you to part with your money.

QUACKS

 

[Bakedgoods]

The only reason I take multivitamins is because I generally don't eat vegetables, I can't stand them. I eat potatoes and the only time I eat anything else (carrots, peas, whatever) is when I eat them in soup or stew.

I do always eat fruit daily though.

 

[Chong Warrior]

It always amazes me how easily some people believe in these pills and powders, even without scientific backing. Bodybuilders seem to be especially vulnerable.

Here's some of the tactics used to get you to part with your money.

QUACKS

LOL some of those of funny

Some are total ballcocks, number 13 is an example.

Jeffstar you seem to be on a bit of an anti-supplement crusade and almost all your posts are slating bodybuilders who use them. Yet things you claim you're guilty of yourself. An example is you claim bodybuilders take pills and powders with no scientific back up, yet you provide no evidence to prove otherwise and that any supplements don't work. (the one above about glucosamine not curing arthritis in 160 year olds isn't what I'd call any kind of proof by the way )

You post your own personal opinion and then provide a link to somewhere (you draw no conclusion from your link and just expect us to read over pages and pages of boring drivel that's repeated in each one) as if it's proof to prove you right beyond any doubt?? Yet all I've seen from you is obvious information that we all aready know and it's pretty much all about vitamins. Yet you seem to be referring to supplements in general in saying NONE of them work and ALL are a waste of money?

 

[Chong Warrior]

The only reason I take multivitamins is because I generally don't eat vegetables, I can't stand them. I eat potatoes and the only time I eat anything else (carrots, peas, whatever) is when I eat them in soup or stew.

I do always eat fruit daily though.

This is THE biggest mistake.

I point I agree with Jeffstar is that multi-vits aren't all that. They're poor really and some are poisonous!! I'll provide some evidence of sorts if you like

The problem with vitamin pills is they give people, like you, a false sense of security. They cannot replace vegetables, not even close, not even by >1%

EDIT - Here's a thread I started on MP's forums with some great info on multi-vits, etc : http://forum.myprotein.co.uk/showthread.php?t=7359&highlight=vitamins+equal

 

[Dj_Jestar]

I've recently (within the last month) begun training again, and 3 weeks ago began drinking a whey-protein drink. However, the difference with me is that I am not drinking it primarily for bulking, I am drinking it to stop me snacking. I have one glass at 11ish, and another at 3ish. This is enough to tie me over till lunch/tea time respectively.

I guess you could call it a slimfast-esque diet, but meh.

 

[Jeffstar]

LOL some of those of funny

Tbh, there's some stuff in there that i've seen you claim, number 8 and 10 for example. Glad you found it funny though

Jeffstar you seem to be on a bit of an anti-supplement crusade and almost all your posts are slating bodybuilders who use them.

I'm not slating anyone, i'm providing some links so that people can make a more informed choice. Incidently, from reading your posts, you seem to be on a pro-supplements crusade! Advising people to take throw pills and powders down their throats seems a bit extreme to me

Yet things you claim you're guilty of yourself. An example is you claim bodybuilders take pills and powders with no scientific back up, yet you provide no evidence to prove otherwise and that any supplements don't work.

Chong, when you make claims suggesting that supplements cure joint pain, detoxify your system, give you more strength or whatever, then the burden of proof must lie with you, dont you agree?

You post your own personal opinion and then provide a link to somewhere (you draw no conclusion from your link and just expect us to read over pages and pages of boring drivel that's repeated in each one) as if it's proof to prove you right beyond any doubt?? Yet all I've seen from you is obvious information that we all aready know and it's pretty much all about vitamins.

Again, i'm supplying reading material so people can make a more informed choice and shall continue to do so if i feel it helps

Yet you seem to be referring to supplements in general in saying NONE of them work and ALL are a waste of money?

Thats my personal opinion, yes

 

[Chong Warrior]

Tbh, there's some stuff in there that i've seen you claim, number 8 and 10 for example. Glad you found it funny though

Of course I did, that site is obsurd! If that's really what you believe then more fool you. I'd love to see this diet of yours that you think provides you with optimal nutrition for health and/or training if that's where you're coming from mate

I'm not slating anyone, i'm providing some links so that people can make a more informed choice. Incidently, from reading your posts, you seem to be on a pro-supplements crusade! Advising people to take throw pills and powders down their throats seems a bit extreme to me

Pro-supplements? Yes. On a crusade? Are you serious or just getting defensive to what I said? How is advising a crusade?

Can I ask what actual personal experience you have in supplements?

Chong, when you make claims suggesting that supplements cure joint pain, detoxify your system, give you more strength or whatever, then the burden of proof must lie with you, dont you agree?

Come again? I'm the one challenging you for proof as your posts try to make out you're providing some using terrible links with laughable sources at times.

Everything I advise on I have first hand experience (18 years worth) if I don't then I don't. I may comment but I certainly won't talk about things I'm not sure about. Now you can flame me for that if it makes you feel better but the fact is there's so much cr@p and misinformation out there in this game, you seem to be believing some of it

Give me some credit I do a LOT of research (the link I gave in post #31 about vitamins is a small example) on supplements, diet and nutrition. None of it is blind or from brain dead meatheads down the local gym, the source of so much BS!

Again, i'm supplying reading material so people can make a more informed choice and shall continue to do so if i feel it helps

Have you ever stopped to think about the validity of said articles? These are the authors of the QUACK article that seems to show your beliefs so well!

http://www.internetwks.com/pauling/bs.html - Victor Herbert winner of several Bad Science awards!! Here's a couple of quotes about some of his work...

All of these statements are nonsense: pure bilge.

This statement is so bizarre that it doesn’t deserve comment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Barrett - This Stephen Barrett guy is 74 years old and well out of touch and date, like someone else around here...

Thats my personal opinion, yes

Ok this is just a quick example, don't change subject lets just see if you really believe that about EVERY supplement.

The Burn Victim Anti-Catabolic Diet

While trying to get ripped up, the reduced amount of calories combined with cardio and resistance exercise can lead to an increase in cortisol, which can lead to a catabolic condition. Did you know that there is an anti-catabolic diet that was specially formulated for burn victims to reverse muscle catabolism? The Shriners' Burn Diet consists of high protein and fats high in anti-inflammatory omega-3 fatty acids that are low in pro-inflammatory omega-6 fatty acids. The diet also has been shown to enhance muscle recuperation from burns compared to the standard hospital diet.

Dr Cutler To The Burn Unit!

When reducing calories and increasing cardio to lose fat, the use of agents that reduce mucle catabolism is beneficial. It should be of no surprise that tesosterone administration has been shown to decrease UPP. The use of clenbuterol is known to exert its anabolic effects largely through reduced protein muscle breakdown. Clenbuterol has been shown to significantly reduce UPP; it also appear that clenbuterol preferentially inhibits the UPP in the fast twitch muscles. Reducing muscle catabolism is eential in the medical field, as trauma doctor know that reversing the catabolic tate in trauma victims is a matter of life and death. In severe injury such as burns, skeletal muscle breakdown far exceeds synthesis, even during feeding. The traumatic insult is also associated with increased cortisol secretion. The increase in blood cortisol concentrations correlates with the severity of the injury and often persists for weeks after injury. Although trauma is accompanied y increased circulating concentrations of glucagons and catecholamines, the loss of muscle mass is likely due primarily to the effects of cortisol. The effect of cortisol on skeletal muscle is to increase protein breakdown, which increases UPP production.

Do you that there is a specially formulated medical drink called Juven to reverse catabolic conditions? Juven is a therapeutic drink clinically proven to help build muscle in cancer and HIV/AIDS patients. The best part about it is that you can all the ingrediants at a local health food store. Juven contains a patented blend of three key ingrediants: HMB, argnine and glutamine. The exact dosing in all the research studies to prevent muscle loss is 3 grams HMB, 14 grams of l-glutamine and 1 gram of L-argnine. Most of the studies to date have adminitered this blend twice a day. Some of the studies are showing increases in lean muscle mass with this supplementation without the use of resistance exercise. It is important to note that all three componnents work through different metabolic pathways and have synergistic effects. Pretty soon, your local emergency room doctors may be Jay Cutler, Ronnie Coleman and the rest of the MD gang due to their expertise with anti-catabolic supplements!

Now there's three supplements right there (HMB, Arginine, Glutamine) that are used in hospitals and actually proved and relied on to work.

 

[Bakedgoods]

This is THE biggest mistake.

I know I know, but unless I eat soup or stew like I said I really do not eat any vegetables with the exception of potatoes. I keep trying some every so often to see if I can learn to like them but it's a definate struggle.

Fruit i'm fine with, but I absolutely hate green shizzle. The only supplement i've took for the last month of so is concentrated fish oil capsules from Boots, along with whey.

I said about taking multivitamins though because I have for about a year or so prior to this.

 

[A2Z]

Wardie - how about throwing in a few veggies into a blender, adding in orange juice etc for taste? haven't tried it myself lol, but cant be THAT bad?

 

[Chong Warrior]

I've a recipe for an awesome broccoli soup if you think you'd be interested. Tastes absolutely nothing like you think, I guarantee you that Even my kids "ask" for it when there's none left, quite spicey and very tasty. Very quick and simple and a pan stores in the fridge for about 4-5 days so you can just have a bowl a day. I swear by it and have one daily

 

[Bakedgoods]

Wardie - how about throwing in a few veggies into a blender, adding in orange juice etc for taste? haven't tried it myself lol, but cant be THAT bad?

I guess, but I may as well just eat soup because it will probably taste nicer

I've a recipe for an awesome broccoli soup if you think you'd be interested. Tastes absolutely nothing like you think, I guarantee you that Even my kids "ask" for it when there's none left, quite spicey and very tasty. Very quick and simple and a pan stores in the fridge for about 4-5 days so you can just have a bowl a day. I swear by it and have one daily

Sure if you don't mind, can't do any harm. As long as it has large peices of meat in it :x

 

[Chong Warrior]

Broccoli (700g) 2 bunches.
Potato (300g)
Double Cream (142ml) - small tub (I use Tesco Organic @ £0.79)
Veg Stock Cubes x2 (20g)

(The Broccoli I get are labelled 300g each but they actually around 350g-380g as that weight doesn't include the main stork which I use and add to the soup)

1. Get a big pan, fill it with around 1.25 litre's of water and bring to boil.
2. Once it's boiling add the vegetable stock cubes.
3. Peel the spuds, cut up into smaller pieces and add to water.
4. Cut the tops off the Broccoli and put to one side, then chop all the storks up (don't throw any of it away!) and add the storks to the water. Don't add the florets yet!!
5. Let this lot boil until the potato has gone soft.
6. Add the broccoli florets
7. Put lid on pan and bring back to boil - 1 minute
8. Turn heat off
9. Use hand blender and mix all the ingredients together.
10. Salt and pepper to taste.
11. Add cream
12. Give another quick go with the hand blender
13. Serv!

Once the broccoli florets are added you should only have the heat on for about another minute, no longer. This will be fine and makes sure none of the goodness from the broccoli is damaged from heating

Nutritional Breakdown:
Whole pan
1160kcals
41g Protein
70g Carbs
79g Fat
23g Fibre

Per Serv (if you split into 7)
165kcals
6g Protein
10g Carbs
11.3g Fat
3.3 Fibre

As I'm eating low-carb, high-fat I no longer add the potato and add some baby spinach instead aswell as more broccoli. This changes the nutrional info a little:

New Nutritional Breakdown:
Whole pan
1000kcals
44g Protein
22g Carbs
80.5g Fat
24g Fibre

Per Serv (if you split into 7)
140kcals
6.2g Protein
3g Carbs
11.5g Fat
3.5g Fibre

 

[Jeffstar]

Of course I did, that site is obsurd! If that's really what you believe then more fool you

Why is it absurd?

I'd love to see this diet of yours that you think provides you with optimal nutrition for health and/or training if that's where you're coming from mate

I've never mentioned my diet, but if you want it I'll send you the papers, special internet rate £30

Pro-supplements? Yes. On a crusade? Are you serious or just getting defensive to what I said? How is advising a crusade?

I've got nothing to be defensive about, i'm not the one pimping supplements.

Can I ask what actual personal experience you have in supplements?

I've had experience with the much touted creatine, i got a silly amount of muscle cramps and zero strength gains while on it. I dread to think about the long term damage it could have done.

Come again? I'm the one challenging you for proof as your posts try to make out you're providing some using terrible links with laughable sources at times.

You're the one making fancy claims about supps, it should you that backs it up.

Everything I advise on I have first hand experience (18 years worth) if I don't then I don't. I may comment but I certainly won't talk about things I'm not sure about. Now you can flame me for that if it makes you feel better but the fact is there's so much cr@p and misinformation out there in this game, you seem to be believing some of it

Sorry but your first hand experience doesnt mean jack in the scientific/medical world. Its more than likely placebo that you're experiencing. I agree 100% about there being so much cr@p and misinformation out there, what make you think your supps advice is any different?

Have you ever stopped to think about the validity of said articles? These are the authors of the QUACK article that seems to show your beliefs so well!

So all the links i've provided are from Quackwatch? please re-read, you'll find theres only one link to that site. Some of the other links are university studies.
Its interesting that Quackwatch seems to have bothered you so much though, do you feel more qualified in health, nutrition and medical matters than its author? Feel free to write to him to express your disgust if it makes you feel better

Now there's three supplements right there (HMB, Arginine, Glutamine) that are used in hospitals and actually proved and relied on to work.

From a quick search, there seems to be only one study about those supps, and its far from conclusive, and of course theres been no long term study. Doesnt take long for the exagerated and misleading adverts to fly out from the health food industry though does it

Sorry, but i still think the supplements market is a big scam.

My advice is save your time and money and put your faith in good eating and training.



*Gets out popcorn* (or should it be unsweetened organic popcorn)