Another wedding thread, lens advice and flash

ScarySquirrel · 10 Aug 2009 at 10:48

EDIT: Sorry, this is a really long post

Hi all,

Firstly, I apologise for creating another wedding photography thread, but I have a few specific questions I would like to ask those who are experienced wedding togs.

I am going to a wedding in September which I have been asked to help out with the photos. It is a budget wedding, they have no pro photographer, only me helping and one other guy. I don’t believe there will be any formal shots, all I know is that I will be there when the bride gets ready, during the ceremony, and at the reception. I have been asked to just do what I want as they will be happy with anything I can get.

I am confident in my ability, however I have some questions.

My kit is fairly low end stuff, this is what I have available:

400D (with battery grip which will be a big help for all day shooting)
Canon 50mm 1.8 – I am thinking this will be used quite a lot, especially during the ceremony where I cannot use flash, also during the bride getting ready and doing shots of flowers and place settings etc.
Sigma 17-70 – I don’t actually use this lens very much.
Sigma 150mm macro – I use this for portraits sometimes but I feel it will be too much to lug around and I doubt I would use it!
Sigma 10-20 – Will definitely be taking this
Canon 430EX with cheap eBay diffuser.

Ok, so those are the main bits of kit worth mentioning, now for some questions

1. I am happy to rent a lens, and I am thinking that a Canon 70-200mm L will compliment the 10-20 Sigma and 50mm Canon very well, giving me a chance to get some good candids with some nice bokeh. Also good for the ceremony as I can hang back and it will be good in low light. Any thoughts on this?

2. Flash – As most of you’ll have seen I have been using flash a lot recently, but only off camera, and manually! I don’t know much about ETTL, or about using my flash on my camera. I am probably going to make a homemade bounce card to help soften shadows, or at the very least I’ll be bouncing flash off ceilings/walls etc. But what do I shoot in? I had some tests last night shooting in P and in M and generally they were ok (I was testing on a teddy bear and a Yoshi model though!) but I just felt they looks a little unnatural. I’ll probably do some practice shots with my GF but I just wanted to find out what other wedding togs did, and how and when they used flash?

3. I have been meaning to get a more compact shoulder bag for a while, one that will just carry my body (with lens) plus 2 more lenses. This seems a good excuse to commit, what would you recommend? What do you use?

Thanks in advance.

To make the thread a little more interesting, post your best wedding photo

john_s · 10 Aug 2009 at 13:36

Not a pro, so feel free to take what I say with a pinch of salt...

The canon 70-200 is a beast of a lens, especially in the f/2.8 IS guise.

Shooting ETTL, I'd probably use M to control the ambient exposure and let the ETTL sort the flash out for the foreground exposure. Just keep an eye on the results on the LCD.

I have made the mistake of using Av (and not keeping an eye on the shutter speed it was using) which dropped too low at times and gave a bit too blurry pics.

I believe P mode will try and keep the shutter speed between 1/60 and the flash sync speed.

WRT bags, I like the Lowepro bags. I wasn't too keen on the strap arrangement of the Slingshot, but that's just a personal preference.

denyerec · 10 Aug 2009 at 13:40

Tamron 24-70/2.8's get a lot of love by wedding and candid photographers, but you MUST test it in the shop to see if it backfocusses, I went through 5 lenses and walked out empty handed, wheras a friend in Belgium *swears* by the one he got and uses it in place of the much heavier Nikon 24-70/2.8 ! (He owns both, and seldom carries the Nikon)

The zoom range gives you just that little extra wiggle around the 50mm, last wedding I did I used the 35-70mm Nikon a lot more than my 50mm prime.

If you have an ETTL flash, buy a curlywhirly TTL extension cable from EBay, and whack the flash on a pole / monopod / whatever with a bouncecard on the end. Or get a cheap ebay bracket and jack it up on there with a bouncecard attached. You can steal bouncecard designs shamelessly from here: http://www.abetterbouncecard.com/

Bagwise I have a Domke F3x pictured here:

Awesome bag, love it.

ScarySquirrel · 10 Aug 2009 at 13:51

Raymond Lin · 10 Aug 2009 at 14:08

A few things.....

The 400D, what is it like i low light because half the fight in wedding is against the light. Apart from the part where people are having drinks, a lot of the event are taking place indoors, especially in a church. I was struggling with a 30D on a 2.8 lens.

Second, you really need a lens to cover 24-70 on FF or 17-50 or there about on crop. That is the lens I use most personally, a 70-200 is too long for 90% of the time and a the last wedding I think less than 5% of the photos are taken with it, and i used a 70-200 2.8 IS. 10-20 is way too wide, that's like using the 16-35 on Full Frame, it'll be good for the group shots and get everything internally in a room but useless for portraits or even candids. 17-50 is what you want.

As for flash, I put it on manual so I get enough amibent light but I control the Shutter speed so I don't get blurry pics and let ETTL do its thing. It seems to work well, and remember to carry spare batteries.

I had the 50/1.8, now the 1.4, and it is a pain in low light without the flash to assist with focusing. It hunts like no tomorrow in low light and you'll miss a LOT of shots with this lens. Also, it is a bit long on the 400D, as no doubt you are planning to use it indoors due to its speed, but i can tell you that when indoors, like a reception, when people dancing, 50mm on crop is way to long, you'll end up with lots of about shoulder shots only, and very little context. Also, i'd forget the monopod and off camera flash, you'll be moving around a lot and a monopod is too cumbersome to carry around.

also....you need a spare camera !!!

I've done 4 weddings now and I am taking the following with me for my 5th this weekend.

Bodies - 5Dii + 30D (both with grip, both with 2 batts)
Lens - 16-35 2.8 L, 24-70 2.8L, 70-200 2.8, 50/1.4,
Flash - 580EXii, 550EX + Stofen Diffuser
48Gig of Memory cards
3 sets of AA rechargebles for the flash, should be enough as I only went through 1 set of AA in the last wedding.
Insurance !

Obviously the above it a lot of money and kit, and the 24-70 is rented and the 70-200 borrowed, it's just what I would have to have now to really be comfortable when doing a wedding. My first wedding i did it with a 30D and a 50/1.8, its where i learnt that lens' limitation and I hope you can at least rent a 17-55 2.8 IS for your wedding, you will be glad you did !

ScarySquirrel · 10 Aug 2009 at 14:29

Thanks for the advice Raymond. I love your wedding photography so I was hoping you would post your thoughts. I'll reply to each bit individually though to make it easier

Raymond Lin said:
A few things.....

The 400D, what is it like i low light because half the fight in wedding is against the light. Apart from the part where people are having drinks, a lot of the event are taking place indoors, especially in a church. I was struggling with a 30D on a 2.8 lens.

It's ok, not great. I haven't done much low light photography so I can't really comment.

Second, you really need a lens to cover 24-70 on FF or 17-50 or there about on crop. That is the lens I use most personally, a 70-200 is too long for 90% of the time and a the last wedding I think less than 5% of the photos are taken with it, and i used a 70-200 2.8 IS. 10-20 is way too wide, that's like using the 16-35 on Full Frame, it'll be good for the group shots and get everything internally in a room but useless for portraits or even candids. 17-50 is what you want.

In that case I probably will end up packing the Sigma 17-70.
Thansk for your comments on the 70-200. I'm a little surprised though as many reviews I have read have put it down as a fantastic event/wedding lens. I have a cheap Sigma 70-300 at home which I never use so I'll stick that on tonight to get an idea of the 70-200 range and decide for myself if I feel it will be worth it or not. Thanks for raising the issue though.

If it is, I may rent a decent 17-50 lens if as you say that is what I will most likely use.

As for flash, I put it on manual so I get enough amibent light but I control the Shutter speed so I don't get blurry pics and let ETTL do its thing. It seems to work well, and remember to carry spare batteries.

Good shout on the batteries. I have loads of rechargables so I'll be sure to pack them. Thanks for advice on settings as well, I'll have another play in the coming weeks and get plenty of practice in.

I had the 50/1.8, now the 1.4, and it is a pain in low light without the flash to assist with focusing. It hunts like no tomorrow in low light and you'll miss a LOT of shots with this lens. Also, it is a bit long on the 400D, as no doubt you are planning to use it indoors due to its speed, but i can tell you that when indoors, like a reception, when people dancing, 50mm on crop is way to long, you'll end up with lots of about shoulder shots only, and very little context. Also, i'd forget the monopod and off camera flash, you'll be moving around a lot and a monopod is too cumbersome to carry around.

I really hadn't thought about this. Obviously 1.8 is great in low light, but I hadn't thought of the focussing.

Is it possible to use the flash to help focus but then force it to not fire?

also....you need a spare camera !!!

I really don't. I'm not the wedding photographer, I'm a guest who has some kit and some photographic know how and is just helping out. I'm not investing in a 2nd body when all I'm doing is helping out. 1 body is more than enough for me for now.

Insurance !

Check.

Thanks for all your thoughts and advice.

Raymond Lin · 10 Aug 2009 at 14:53

ScarySquirrel said:
Thanks for the advice Raymond. I love your wedding photography so I was hoping you would post your thoughts. I'll reply to each bit individually though to make it easier

Thanks

I am REALLY looking forward to the one this week, pretty couple, nice environment, should make great photos if the weather stays good.

ScarySquirrel said:
In that case I probably will end up packing the Sigma 17-70.
Thansk for your comments on the 70-200. I'm a little surprised though as many reviews I have read have put it down as a fantastic event/wedding lens. I have a cheap Sigma 70-300 at home which I never use so I'll stick that on tonight to get an idea of the 70-200 range and decide for myself if I feel it will be worth it or not. Thanks for raising the issue though.

If it is, I may rent a decent 17-50 lens if as you say that is what I will most likely use.

Well, for the photos i take, i get right in there amongst people, so 17-50/24-70 is perfect. 70-200 also have 1 draw back, shutter speed, if you don't have IS, then at 200mm, you'll need 1/200 indoor, and try to get that with 2.8 and keepin the ISO low is a real fight in low light. And if you are doing candids with this at over 100mm indoors, the flash will be using a lot of power, not to mention it might not reach (people in the way, ceiling too high).

It's just my style and experience really that i find a 17-50 on crop is the best length, and if you ask most wedding tog what their bread and butter lens is, i am sure they'll say its the 24-70 which is the same focal length.

ScarySquirrel said:
Good shout on the batteries. I have loads of rechargables so I'll be sure to pack them. Thanks for advice on settings as well, I'll have another play in the coming weeks and get plenty of practice in.

You can never have enough batteries

ScarySquirrel said:
I really hadn't thought about this. Obviously 1.8 is great in low light, but I hadn't thought of the focussing.

Is it possible to use the flash to help focus but then force it to not fire?

The focusing on the 1.8 in low light is not good, and its quite well known, and hard to focus manually due to the tiny focus ring on the end of the lens. You can use the Flash's IR bean to assist focus though, there is a custom function you just use that without the flash going off.

ScarySquirrel said:
Thanks for all your thoughts and advice.

You are welcome

ScarySquirrel · 10 Aug 2009 at 15:53

Cool, I'll check out the custom function stuff for the flash as that would be a huge help.

By the way, I love your website. I wish I could make something like that for myself!
Good luck for the weeked

this_is_gav · 10 Aug 2009 at 16:03

ScarySquirrel said:
In that case I probably will end up packing the Sigma 17-70.

ScarySquirrel said:
I really hadn't thought about this. Obviously 1.8 is great in low light, but I hadn't thought of the focussing.

For the record, my Simga 17-70mm (Nikon fit) is pretty poor at focussing unassisted in low light too. Hunts quite a bit but when it does find a lock it's not too bad.

Was trying to use it in a relatively well lit disco at our school prom on my D300 with SB800 flash, and it wasn't playing ball at all. I ended up using my 2nd body of D40x, SB600 and Sigma 10-20, which was faultless.

A colleagues Tamron 17-50 f2.8 on his Nikon D60 was impressive though... but it's not the quietest lens in the world (though not what I would call loud either).

ScarySquirrel · 10 Aug 2009 at 16:15

How about the Canon EF 85mm f/1.2 L II USM for that little extra reach and for use in low light?

Too long on a crop sensor?

Bear in mind I'll have the thing for three days, so I'll be squeezing in some portrait work too

Raymond Lin · 10 Aug 2009 at 16:49

ScarySquirrel said:
How about the Canon EF 85mm f/1.2 L II USM for that little extra reach and for use in low light?

Too long on a crop sensor?

Bear in mind I'll have the thing for three days, so I'll be squeezing in some portrait work too

If i were you, and renting 1 lens, get the 17-55 2.8 IS.

The 85mm is too long, way too long.

Namistai · 10 Aug 2009 at 19:07

Raymond Lin said:
If i were you, and renting 1 lens, get the 17-55 2.8 IS.

The 85mm is too long, way too long.

From my limited wedding experience, I would agree. I used a 50mm f/1.8 on a 450D (1.6x crop factor) and it was too long for many situations - although it does depend on the venue to an extent.

I do agree that a 70-200mm would be good for candids - this was something I lacked and wished that I had.

What is your Sigma 17-70mm like? It seems like almost the perfect reach for the majority of the shots you'll take, assuming that it's a sharp copy etc, although I know nothing about this lens and note the comments below.

I was actually going to suggest borrowing or hiring a Canon 17-85mm IS due to the reach which I think will cover most scenarios adequately (although I'm not sure what the reviews on this lens are like). The benefits of hiring the 17-55mm would be having IS and the extra speed it offers.

Raymond Lin · 10 Aug 2009 at 20:20

The 17-85 although has extra reach, IMO its way too slow, and not that sharp. The only thing going for it is the IS.

I just got home and managed to got my gear together, this is my gear for the wedding this weekend.

Namistai · 10 Aug 2009 at 21:06

Raymond Lin said:
The 17-85 although has extra reach, IMO its way too slow, and not that sharp. The only thing going for it is the IS.

This was one of my concerns, not knowing enough about this lens - and hence my caveat

17-55mm f/2.8 all the way then imo

colinuk · 11 Aug 2009 at 13:38

17-55 lens is a good lens for weddings, the 50mm is good, but i use that on another camera, also have a pocket fuji for quick shots and as a back up.

Flash.... well to be honest, in a church its not allowed. Outside, its bright and light for group shots and standing 20 foot away to get them all in, its not going to do much for you. Close up with the bride and groom, it is good to fill in shadows, if your unsure, leave it on TTL setting and let the camera do it, then take another with no flash.

A good tip for you, wait until the wedding has stopped and a lot of people have gone to the pub for drinks and toasting meal. keep the bride and groom back for 10 mins and get some photos of them together. They will love them. Dont worry about taking time, they wont remember a thing about it.

My lisy of items for a wedding went like this;

Fuji S5 - 50 mm + 10-20mm
Fuji S5 - 17-55mm + 70-200mm
Fuji F10 use to give this to a bridesmaid to take photos,
Fuji S2 in boot of car, just in case. [backup]
Flash on 17-55mm camera. Nikon something.
Tripod.
2 gig memory card x4
1 gig memory card x4
Blanket for bride and groom to sit on out side on the grass.
Whistle - gets people's attention, only used it once! lol.
Check list of photos to take, BG - BG + mum dad, BG + bride maids, ect.

A few stock photos of trees and walls around the place so i can photoshop them in if the background is no good on a photo.

The 200mm lens in the church on a tripod, between the priest and the B+G is good.

And get a photo of the cake!!

Have fun, i loved doing them.. cant wait to see your pictures

Blackvault · 11 Aug 2009 at 14:17

Raymond: How do you find the 16-35? Reason I ask is I'm looking at getting the MKII version. Also what are your expereinces of the 50mm 1.4?

Thanks

Blackvault

Raymond Lin · 11 Aug 2009 at 17:28

Blackvault said:
Raymond: How do you find the 16-35? Reason I ask is I'm looking at getting the MKII version. Also what are your expereinces of the 50mm 1.4?

Thanks

Blackvault

the 16-35 is fast, it has a really short focus distance and REALLY wide on FF ! Mine is a MK1 which i paid £500 odd for, i couldn't afford the MK2 at the time, and it'll do for now. It does vignette a bit on the 5D due to the focal length at 16mm but its part of its charm.

As for the 50/1.4, it is amazing, i love it, much better than the 1.8 in every way but the price which i think is justified. The bokeh it produces is much nicer and 1.4 is SO thin !!!!!! put it on the 5D and its dangerously thin !

Combat squirrel · 11 Aug 2009 at 17:36

Interested in this thread also, have a wedding coming up on the 5th sep, whats best place for one day insurance at a reasonable price ?, also my kit is:

Canon 40D + 400D backup
Sigma 10-20
Tamron 17-50 f2.8
Canon 55-250 IS
Sigma 150mm F2.8 Macro
Canon 50mm f1.8
Metz 58 AF1 flash (plus off camera flash cord and portrait bracket)
24GB odd of memory cards
4 sets of batteries for everything !

Am thinking ill be using my tamron 80% of the time with the sigma for ceremony shots without getting in the way (F2.8 ***)

Whats best price for one days insurance ?, iv done weddings before but this is the 1st time for someone I REALLY dont know at all, they just looked at my portfolio and wanted hire me, before its been for friends etc, so am feeling the pressure but nothing like a good challange.

So aside from insurance and the above stuff, any more tips ?

denyerec · 11 Aug 2009 at 23:17

Hey Colin! *waves*

ScarySquirrel · 20 Aug 2009 at 10:40

Sweet!!! Managed to secure a 40D on loan from a work mate as well

I've decided I'll be hiring a 24-70L 2.8 and 70-200L IS 2.8.

Reason, I'll have a wide angle covering 10-20mm, 24-70mm covered and then 70-200mm. With the second body it means I can have the 24-70 with flash on one camera and the 70-200mm on the other body for candids (which is what the girl wants most).

This leaves me with

400D with battery grip
40D (not sure if it has battery grip)
430EX
Sigma 10-20
24-70L 2.8
70-200L IS 2.8

I know this is quite light for a wedding, but bear in mind I am just a guest helping out, but it is a great opportunity for me

I've not tried carrying around two camera bodies before but to say I'll feel a little uncomfortable will be an understatement. I really need to get over my confidence issues and I think this is the perfect opportunity.