Any downsides to a smart meter?

[Deleted User 298457]

What I find funny is people get all defensive over something that benefits themselves. A meter is a meter and what you use from the grid should cost the same whether you're on pre pay or smart. The poor can't afford roof tops full of solar panels or battery packs as it is nore do people have space for all these things. I don't see why people on pre pay meters should be hit hardest but as long as your okay jack I suppose it doesn't matter about the other people. These energy companies are ruthless and couldn't give two **** about peoples circumstances and will just turn you off without having to enter your property now.

You may want to hope you don't fall on hard times and end up in similar circumstances

Can you point to the cloud you are shouting at?

I don't have battery nor solar, but I benefit massively from time of use tariffs. I shift my heavy demand to 1230-0430, and benefit greatly from it at no cost to myself or others -- night usage is always cheaper because it is difficult to "stop producing" so an abundance of power that cannot be stored happens.

This has been the cases for a century at least, it is why night shift at heavy industry made commercial sense - the power was cheaper which offset the higher labour wage.

In fact, time of use tariffs have probably benefited poor people more than anyone (storage heaters etc).

 

[Hawk Tuah]

A meter is a meter

So, why all the fuss to avoid a smart one then.

 

[jpaul]

This has been the cases for a century at least, it is why night shift at heavy industry made commercial sense

genuinely - really - I thought just maximising use of heavy engineering plant justified nights ... are there industries that work eccentrically, genuinely turning up the heat at night time,
most furnace folks you don't want thermal shock on refractories so 24/7 as much as possible

 

[Raymond Lin]

Can you point to the cloud you are shouting at?

I don't have battery nor solar, but I benefit massively from time of use tariffs. I shift my heavy demand to 1230-0430, and benefit greatly from it at no cost to myself or others -- night usage is always cheaper because it is difficult to "stop producing" so an abundance of power that cannot be stored happens.

This has been the cases for a century at least, it is why night shift at heavy industry made commercial sense - the power was cheaper which offset the higher labour wage.

In fact, time of use tariffs have probably benefited poor people more than anyone (storage heaters etc).

The obvious question is. Anyone without a smart meter can shift it to these hours an save the same money without a smart meter?

Or, if you know this, and unwilling, be it too lazy, or simply not possible (as in not at home at those hours), to shift your habit this way. There would be no point.

I am not going to move all my TV watching to be between midnight to 4am. I already do the washing at midnight anyway for the past 20 years...So what is the advantage then?

One thing I can’t figure out, why would energy company (or any company for that matter) would do something that could hurt their bottom line…if everyone pays less? They make less. It makes no sense. They are in the business to make money, so why are they pushing to make less? It’s not like it’s a loss leader. You don’t suddenly start a crypto farm at home because you start doing your washing at midnight.

I’ve been asking myself that for a while and can’t think of an answer. It’s a legit question surely. Why would they want to make less profit?

 

[Deleted User 298457]

genuinely - really - I thought just maximising use of heavy engineering plant justified nights ... are there industries that work eccentrically, genuinely turning up the heat at night time,
most furnace folks you don't want thermal shock on refractories so 24/7 as much as possible

Slightly aside but Google/read up on Dinorwig. It is the hydro electric plant that uses 3kWh for every 1kWh it generates (it takes 3kWh to pump the water back up the mountain). The trick is that it can generate instantly and in a fairly reliable way; versus coal that takes ages to warm up/can't be quickly turned off. So all that extra capacity going to waste is sold for cheap, which offset decent chunk of $$ for any energy intensive businesses. Obviously there are other levers at play (capacity/doubling output) but no harm in running exclusively at night if the maths works.

The obvious question is. Anyone without a smart meter can shift it to these hours an save the same money without a smart meter?

Or, if you know this, and unwilling, be it too lazy, or simply not possible (as in not at home at those hours), to shift your habit this way. There would be no point.

I am not going to move all my TV watching to be between midnight to 4am. I already do the washing at midnight anyway for the past 20 years...So what is the advantage then?

Smart meters enabled the tariff. Previously you'd need to ask for an Eco7 meter to be fitted, which rinsed you during the day (40/50p a kWh). These meters are inflexible and can cost to get swapped/replaced, and cost you more unless you are shifting a large load (storage heaters was the original intent).

To your second statement - well yeah, it is purely subjective. If you aren't interested in anything then why do anything? Smart meters can give you Tracker tariffs, EV charging tariffs, etc. etc. but if you aren't willing to take advantage then pay the "convenience" fee. At the moment the total market pays the convenience fee and early adopters are getting the discount; I guess soon the shift will be more pronounced.

To your final statement, if you don't want any of the above and aren't interested in "near real time" usage, then just opt out peacefully. I don't see any counter argument to smart meters that isn't fluff/tinfoil hat stuff tbh.

 

[200sols]

The obvious question is. Anyone without a smart meter can shift it to these hours an save the same money without a smart meter?

Or, if you know this, and unwilling, be it too lazy, or simply not possible (as in not at home at those hours), to shift your habit this way. There would be no point.

I am not going to move all my TV watching to be between midnight to 4am. I already do the washing at midnight anyway for the past 20 years...So what is the advantage then?

Tracker is fixed rate all day. So the advantage based on last years data is to save roughly 40% vs the cap price right now.

 

[200sols]

One thing I can’t figure out, why would energy company (or any company for that matter) would do something that could hurt their bottom line…if everyone pays less? They make less. It makes no sense. They are in the business to make money, so why are they pushing to make less? It’s not like it’s a loss leader. You don’t suddenly start a crypto farm at home because you start doing your washing at midnight.

I’ve been asking myself that for a while and can’t think of an answer. It’s a legit question surely. Why would they want to make less profit?

They make a tiny margin whatever, energy costs more in the 4-7pm window as that is a peak time so in effect you pay a premium 21hours a day to cover this window.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

The obvious question is. Anyone without a smart meter can shift it to these hours an save the same money without a smart meter?

No, because for a time of use tariff to be effective, the energy company needs to know when you consumed it.

Old eco 7 meters were built to be dual rate but they were fixed at specific times. Smart meters allow for more flexibility and in their current implementation allow for half hourly pricing.

Or, if you know this, and unwilling, be it too lazy, or simply not possible (as in not at home at those hours), to shift your habit this way. There would be no point.

I am not going to move all my TV watching to be between midnight to 4am. I already do the washing at midnight anyway for the past 20 years...So what is the advantage then?

Most modern TVs use next to no electricity. Many are down in the 100-200w range, you’d have to watch for 5-10 hours to use 30p of electricity.

The big hitters are cooking, driers, washing machines and dish washers.

It may not even be about moving stuff to the middle of the night, just moving activity in the day can help. For example, it’s not usual for the 30min tracking tariffs to have a really cheap period from 2pm-4pm, I’ve even seen it negative in this period (they pay you to consume).

One thing I can’t figure out, why would energy company (or any company for that matter) would do something that could hurt their bottom line…if everyone pays less? They make less. It makes no sense. They are in the business to make money, so why are they pushing to make less? It’s not like it’s a loss leader.

I’ve been asking myself that for a while and can’t think of an answer. It’s a legit question.

They’ll make their money either way, the way the industry is regulated is that they make £20-£50 per customer per year. It doesn’t matter how much they sell you or for what price, they’ll still make about the same amount of profit.

 

[Raymond Lin]

No, because for a time of use tariff to be effective, the energy company needs to know when you consumed it.

Old eco 7 meters were built to be dual rate but they were fixed at specific times. Smart meters allow for more flexibility and in their current implementation allow for half hourly pricing.


Most modern TVs use next to no electricity. Many are down in the 100-200w range, you’d have to watch for 5-10 hours to use 30p of electricity.

The big hitters are cooking, driers, washing machines and dish washers.

It may not even be about moving stuff to the middle of the night, just moving activity in the day can help. For example, it’s not usual for the 30min tracking tariffs to have a really cheap period from 2pm-4pm, I’ve even seen it negative in this period (they pay you to consume).


They’ll make their money either way, the way the industry is regulated is that they make £20-£50 per customer per year. It doesn’t matter how much they sell you or for what price, they’ll still make about the same amount of profit.

I cook with gas.
I don't have a dishwasher.
I don't have a dryer. (I don't even use a hairdryer, my Dyson is a cordless so I charge overnight usually)
I do my washing at midnight.
I am not at home from 8am to 5pm.
I watch TV in the dark.
I have LED bulbs.

 

[Business Man]

So, why all the fuss to avoid a smart one then.

You either missed my point or trying to be smart with that response. I've already said why I don't like them.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

The obvious question is. Anyone without a smart meter can shift it to these hours an save the same money without a smart meter?

Or, if you know this, and unwilling, be it too lazy, or simply not possible (as in not at home at those hours), to shift your habit this way. There would be no point.

I am not going to move all my TV watching to be between midnight to 4am. I already do the washing at midnight anyway for the past 20 years...So what is the advantage then?

One thing I can’t figure out, why would energy company (or any company for that matter) would do something that could hurt their bottom line…if everyone pays less? They make less. It makes no sense. They are in the business to make money, so why are they pushing to make less? It’s not like it’s a loss leader. You don’t suddenly start a crypto farm at home because you start doing your washing at midnight.

I’ve been asking myself that for a while and can’t think of an answer. It’s a legit question surely. Why would they want to make less profit?

Your confusing the generators with the suppliers

Its impossible to switch your usage to another time to save money if you haven't got a time of use tariff

NO one is saying to watch the TV at 4am.
You move the items that don't affect your living to those times.

I guess its just easier to get if you have a TOU tariff.
I mean my dishwasher is always set to start around 00:30 - 1am, unless I am getting free power on a power up.
Same with my batteries, charge 00:30 - 4:30am use them after that, but recharge if a powerup.

 

[Deleted User 298457]

I cook with gas.
I don't have a dishwasher.
I don't have a dryer. (I don't even use a hairdryer, my Dyson is a cordless so I charge overnight usually)
I do my washing at midnight.
I am not at home from 8am to 5pm.
I watch TV in the dark.
I have LED bulbs.

Get a smart meter with time of use and pay less for your washing and charging your Dyson then.

 

[964rs]

This thread has got a bit lively.
My own personal view for what its worth is that the cheap rates for smart meters are a bit of a gimmick and will probably
one day cease to exist but why would you not want to take advantage of the reduced rate now.
I cant ever see dumb meter rates being better than smart meter rates as others have already said.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

I cook with gas.
I don't have a dishwasher.
I don't have a dryer. (I don't even use a hairdryer, my Dyson is a cordless so I charge overnight usually)
I do my washing at midnight.
I am not at home from 8am to 5pm.
I watch TV in the dark.
I have LED bulbs.

The irony is that as someone who cooks with gas, your peak time usage is likely very low compared to average but by having a flat rate tariff you are effectively subsidising those who have high peak time usage. If you went on a tariff like Octopus Agile and did nothing to move your usage profile, you’d probably save money.

Smart meters are not just about today, they are also about tomorrow where everything will be electric, including cars and heating.

It’s already cheaper in most cases to replace an aging gas boiler with a heat pump due to some hefty government subsidies available at the moment.

It only makes sense to be on a flat rate tariff if you have an electric car if you do something daft like <2000 miles a year on electric charge from your own home.

 

[Hawk Tuah]

I cook with gas.
I don't have a dishwasher.
I don't have a dryer. (I don't even use a hairdryer, my Dyson is a cordless so I charge overnight usually)
I do my washing at midnight.
I am not at home from 8am to 5pm.
I watch TV in the dark.
I have LED bulbs.

Maybe you wouldn't save much money. Still not sure why that makes any argument against a smart meter. As others have said, it's just a meter. I don't see what the fuss is.

You either missed my point or trying to be smart with that response. I've already said why I don't like them.

Pointing out that by your own standards, your arguments are nonsensical.



I've got nothing against people choosing to not have a smart meter, people are allowed to make their own bed and lie in it. I just find highly irritating when they try to pass over their misguided opinions as facts and encourage others to join them in their bad decisions.

 

[jpaul]

I've got nothing against people choosing to not have a smart meter, people are allowed to make their own bed and lie in it. I just find highly irritating when they try to pass over their misguided opinions as facts and encourage others to join them in their bad decisions.

the point about surveillance of your habits (like the nhs database kerfuddle say) - if you read the octopus research paper on demand saving where they categorise the socio economic/battery/solar profile of participants, it shows big data in action, guess they now have AI involved in Kracken too - they use the data to optimise their profits, it's not altruistic.
Like Raymond I have nothing to gain from Octopus tou type contracts/smart meter ... now if the government/labour didn't impose £200 odd a year for the green deal and subsidising heat pumps or vat on solar panels, that would be different,
or if standing charge didn't include consumption/capacity related components.

 

[Deleted User 298457]

the point about surveillance of your habits (like the nhs database kerfuddle say) - if you read the octopus research paper on demand saving where they categorise the socio economic/battery/solar profile of participants, it shows big data in action, guess they now have AI involved in Kracken too - they use the data to optimise their profits, it's not altruistic.
Like Raymond I have nothing to gain from Octopus tou type contracts/smart meter ... now if the government/labour didn't impose £200 odd a year for the green deal and subsidising heat pumps or vat on solar panels, that would be different,
or if standing charge didn't include consumption/capacity related components.

The thing is there is bigger money for these companies in reducing supply - almost every special tariff results in lower ARPU. It is unlike any other industry - the big money is getting a share in the value from coal and gas stations not firing up and giving 50% of what they would have spent to the energy cos.

 

[Journey]

I cook with gas.
I don't have a dishwasher.
I don't have a dryer. (I don't even use a hairdryer, my Dyson is a cordless so I charge overnight usually)
I do my washing at midnight.
I am not at home from 8am to 5pm.
I watch TV in the dark.
I have LED bulbs.

So basically you'd end up saving money if you were on a smart tariff, as it appears most of your usage is off peak. Why would you want to pay 27-28ppkWh when you could be paying 7.5ppkWh, and the peak rate is the same so you are the one losing out, continue along without one don't think anyone really cares to be honest, one day they'll force you to have one anyhow so enjoy (???) it while you can.

 

[BigBoy]

1 - It needs electricity to run....which you have to pay for, I know it's low but it is not free energy.
2 - The old ones, becomes useless when you switch supplier
3 - They can report mistakes and suddenly you end up with a bill in the 5 figures (see plenty of news on this....unlikely but does happen).
4 - It's a good idea to check the meter box now and again, to spot any potential issues in that area.
5 - Don't really want the companies to monitor my daily usage or habit/patterns, more data = easier to target and move peak / off-peak.

I might be getting too cynical and tin foil on the last one but the apart from convenience, I don't see why I need them.

1. Incorrect, the meter uses no electricity you pay for. The hand held display is optional this used less than an LED lightbulb.
2. Irrelevant as a new install has to be a SMETS2 device.
3.in 10+ years of installing maintaining and monitoring smart meters this has never been a thing with my employer (EDF)
4. First correct statement so far
5. Your supplier has no interest in your usage other than you paying for what you are using. Demand flexibility is a service produced by the transporter or DNO not your supplier/producer.

If your current meter is 10+ years old it under law (as metering falls under the weights and measures act) need to be replaced. If it is 25+ years old there is a potential for it to be under or over reading your usage (very common for it to be over reporting due to the nature of mechanical metering)

I work in the supply industry for one of the largest suppliers in the UK we installed over 480k smart meters last year, and have nearly 53% of our customer base on smart. We missed our government body set smart install target by nearly 200k meters and will be fined because our customers do not want them. Having smart does not make your bills go up. NOT having smart will. It's simple mathematics...

 

[Manbatius]

I finally bit the bullet and tried to sign up to get one with Octopus just a couple of weeks ago only to be told they have no appointments available.

Hey Feek,

Exact same thing here, in the other thread on "what were your energy bills", I decided on the 8th of Jan I wanted one, got the exact same as you.
However I went on a waiting list after a few days got an appointment option and mine was fitted yesterday. Point is they will come up.