Any recommendations for in-wall speakers? Fronts and centre?

Phate

Phate

Phate

Caporegime
Joined
1 Nov 2003
Posts
35,691
Location
Lisbon, Portugal
Hi all,

Home cinema setup will be going through a bit of a revamp in the near future including replacing my ageing floorstanders.

I want to go the in-wall route on a floating wall as my cats like to use my current floorstanders as platforms to sit and jump from, which as more than once resulted in the speakers toppling over...man they make a large bang when that happens :p

Anyway, i'd like to start looking into in-wall speakers. Can anyone recommend any to be used in a 5.1 setup primarily for movies?

I don't have a specific budget in mind. But I would be willing to spend up to maybe €1k for the fronts.

Centre wise would be to match the look and setup of flush/hidden speakers - despite owning a decent centre already, but I can soon sell that.

Thanks very much!

TIA
Jake
 
*thumbs up*

I had a quick look on their website and they look pretty nice. :)

I went to view an apartment yesterday and put an offer in. Currently looking at photos to figure out the living room layout including said proposed floating wall and in wall speakers. I might make a seperate thread on that one.

Those with experience, is there anything to be particularly aware of when planning in-wall speakers? like do they need a certain amount of space around them inside the wall to breath etc. Any guidance and info would be appreciated
 
linford said:
If you are building a false partition wall why not form open alcoves and buy quality bookshelf speakers to fit/size ?
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Won't that require the false wall to come even further out from the actual wall to incorporate them? Therefore losing floor space?
 
Phate said:
*thumbs up*

I had a quick look on their website and they look pretty nice. :)

I went to view an apartment yesterday and put an offer in. Currently looking at photos to figure out the living room layout including said proposed floating wall and in wall speakers. I might make a seperate thread on that one.

Those with experience, is there anything to be particularly aware of when planning in-wall speakers? like do they need a certain amount of space around them inside the wall to breath etc. Any guidance and info would be appreciated
Click to expand...

In-walls put more energy in to the structure of the building. Sound carries partly by air, and partly by vibration. Bear this in mind if there is to be a room on the other side of the wall. There's also fire regs to think about if applicable, and keeping dust and debris out of the back of the speaker both in the short- and the long-term. I tend to kill two birds with one stone here and specify fire hoods. They form a debris barrier, but also restore some of the fire protection that was lost when holes were cut in to plasterboard walls. These considerations, and spec'ing adequate quality all-copper cable - preferably with a LSZH (Low smoke zero halogen) jacket - should cover anything with a direct financial impact on the budget.

Sound-wise, conventional box loudspeakers will generally sound better for the same money. They also offer a bit more flexibility over positioning (spacing and toe-in) to fine tune the sound. IMO, box speakers sitting within the open front-faced boxes of wall unit or bookshelf become acoustically compromised. In simpler terms, the sound and energy that escapes from the cabinet sides and rear of any speaker then bounces around within the confines of the shelf. Now you're listening to the speaker and the furniture as well as the room rather than just the speaker and the room. If you want to test this effect for yourself, have someone cup their hands around their mouth to make a tunnel while speaking to you. You'll hear a difference immediately.

The permanence of the positioning of in-wall speakers means you should think carefully about the room layout. You're unlikely to rearrange a room or change the seating positions drastically when there's a TV on the wall, but it's worth considering how changing the viewing distance +/- a metre may well change whether you're sitting where the sound focusses from the speakers.

Compared to an ordinary dome tweeter, the ribbon tweeter in the Dalis has a very wide dispersion horizontally. It's a feature that Dali promote quite heavily. What's not so well known is that ribbons are very directional vertically. Ideally, you want the ribbon tweeter level with ear height for a seated adult in that room. The other thing that's not talked about much is that some ribbons only work at very high frequencies. That's the case with the Dalis. It, and the narrow vertical dispersion, are why there's a conventional dome tweeter as well as a ribbon in the Phantoms and Ikons. Given these caveats, and the fact that ribbons are difficult (read sa: Expensive) to mass-produce, you might be wondering at this point why anyone bothers. The answer is the sound. Ribbons impart a sweetness to the upper end of the audio that's hard to replicate with a conventional dome tweeter that's covering a much larger frequency range.

Bringing this back to how it's relevant to room design, make sure that the ribbons are at- or very close to- ear height for a seated adult. There's also a rule of thumb regarding speaker width. The speakers and the main listening position should be at the three corners of an equilateral triangle. That's a triangle where each side is the same length as the others. This means the spear width is the same distance as the measurement from the main listening seat to each speaker.
 
Thats excellent, thank you Lucid :) - Really really useful. Especially when considering what is on the other side of the wall.

I believe in my case it will be the elevator shaft of the building but I'll double check before acting upon anything.
 
An update on this.

I'll be in my new place within a month or so, so I began to look into this more seriously and found the one and only Dali authorised reseller here in Lisbon (who happens to be about 10mins away in the car) and also went to another home theatre company here as well.

I went to the other one first called "Life Emotions" and their store was huge and very impressive. They don't sell Dali but they had in-wall options, they offered Martin Logan and some others. Got a demo of the ML and was very very impressed with them. I got talking to one of their guys and they confirmed they could offer what I was looking for. The guy was a bit robotic though. He was talking prices of 3 grand per speaker, 3 grand for an amp etc...I got the impression that their sort of clientale typically do not talk about prices and just tell their staff to come around and get the job done then see & pay the bill at the end. Anyway all food for thought.

Next up I went to the Dali guy, initially I couldn't find his place, I was at the address and couldn't see it...then I saw this almost like hole in the wall, with a door and the name of the company, gave a knock and poked my head in. Got talking to the guy...MUCH more friendlier. Sat down with him in what felt like a basement. He had 3 or so rooms available mostly full of gear for customers and I explained the in-wall speaker idea and he had a better one. Dali's on-wall speakers. I had no idea these existed...he had plenty there, showed me them and I was utterly gobsmacked by it...couple of inches in thickness, attachment to the wall like you would a heavy picture. Too small for any cat to jump onto, no construction work or other considerations needed. Seems perfect! Also he demo'd them to me. I was really impressed. They sounded fantastic.

Also this guy seemed way more human...I much preferred Mr one man band vs the other place.

So, when I've got the keys to the place he will come around and take a look and we'll figure out the finer details such as installation points. But in the meantime he will send me a quote in the next few days for 3 Opticon on-wall speakers (2 fronts and centre), 2 Oberon on-wall for the rears, 2 atmos speakers, subwoofer or 2, amplifier and a rack/cabinet to chew over :)
 
Nice update. Finding a good dealer is worth far more than many people realise at first.

Incidentally, KEF and Monitor Audio both do on-walls as well. The structure places the driver coil on the outside rim which allows for the shallow driver depth.
 
Got a quote through from Mr Dali, seems very well priced :)

Hes quoted me for either of these AV Receivers

Receiver Marantz SR6013---------------------------------------------------€1300
or
Receiver Marantz SR7013---------------------------------------------------€1690

Any thoughts/comments on either of these @lucid ?

TIA
 
Marantz are good AV receivers. They share a common base platform with the equivalent Denon receivers, but the Marantz units are further tweaked for musical performance.

There's a lot of commonality between the SR6013 and 7013 models. The obvious main difference is that the 7013 is an 11 channel amp compared to 9 channels on the 6013. However, the 6013 has pre-outs for the two extra channels, so with a suitable stereo power amp, it can equal the ATMOS capabilities of the 7013.

While both models you've been quoted on with handle basic 5.1, they really are suited to running larger systems with more speakers. Simple question then: Do you need all the features that these amps provide, or could you step down a model and use the saved cash in some other more beneficial area?

The SR5013 is a 7.2 amp. Compared to the 6013, it gives away 10W/ch (see #1), you don't have eARC (see #2), or dual independent sub control (see #3), and there's a different version of Audyssey EQ (see #4).

What difference do these features make?

#1 100W vs 110W - honest answer, not a lot. AV receiver power figures are largely a work of fiction based on some unrealistic scenarios to get "good" numbers

# 2 eARC - We've had Audio Return Channel on HDMI for a few years now. It pumps audio from the TV down the HDMI cable, so when you're watching the TVs Netflix app then you got to hear the sound via an external sound system without the need to hook up another cable; this was the Optical connection.

Personally, I never had a problem with an additional connection. One extra 'wire' trunked in to a wall or hidden behind the TV stand wasn't ever a big issue to me. Since TVs largely limited their audio pass-thru to Dolby Digital then it wasn't as if anything was being lost. Both standard ARC and Optical max out at DD/DTS 5.1. Things are changing though. Apps for Netflix and other streaming services are starting to add ATMOS-enabled sound in the format of Dolby Digital Plus.

There are a lot of ducks to get in a row before the full benefit of eARC is realised. You have to have a TV with eARC, and be playing that TV's built-in apps, and the streaming apps must carry audio that requires the extra bandwidth that eARC accommodates, and you have to have an audio system set up to take advantage of ATMOS sound. If one or more of those elements are missing, then the benefit of eARC evaporates. Conclusion: if eARC comes included in the price of an AV receiver, then great. However, I wouldn't pay extra for it as a standalone feature.

#3 Independent dual sub control - Where a set-up uses more than one sub either to provide more power or to smooth out the in-room bass response, having an amp that can measure and adjust for each independently is useful. Whenever a sub is moved to a new position, it changes the way that the bass interacts with the room. Bear in mind though that the basic mic/wizard speaker set-up routine for most AV receivers is quite crude, and that's because bass is the most difficult audio range to EQ electronically.

#4 Audyssey MultiEQ XT (SR5013) vs Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 (SR6013/7013)

Audyssey is a 3rd party EQ system. It works pretty well. 'XT' is much better than the basic Audyssey MultiEQ. The XT32 is a refinement on that with greater resolution for the processing points. All electronic Room EQ systems try to fix problems by applying a sort of graphic equaliser function to problem frequencies. It's actually a bit more sophisticated than that, but you get it that's it's the sort of the principle. There are limits to what can be achieved, and also limits to where and how much should be applied.

Processing above 500Hz is relatively simple in effect because it's dealing with the nature of surfaces in the room - reflective, absorbative, scattering. As standard though, automatic room EQ above 500Hz tend to mess up the midrange frequencies by trying to kill to much reverberence. That's largely because the mic for the EQ system doesn't hear the room in the same way we do. We're able to focus on the sound from the speakers and give less weight to the sounds bouncing back from the room. The omnidirectional mics supplied with receivers just hear everything, and so they kill more of the reverb than is strictly necessary. XT32 throws a lot of processing power at the upper frequency range where, IMO, it's not really required.

Dealing with bass, and the tricky room transition frequencies from 200Hz to 300Hz where bass problems such as standing waves give way to room reflection issues is something that most built-in EQ struggles with. XT and XT32 are equal in this regard. They both have the same sampling resolution.

Where the Audyssey systems come in to their own is when you move away from the one-size-fits-all approach of generic room EQ curves and start to use custom settings. There are two levels of this. The first is access to the Audyssey processing engine via a simple smart phone / table app for Android or iOS. This allows the EQ to be limited in the range it is applied to; so you could have it working below 300Hz only. That's a good thing. Secondly, you can move (some of?) the unused filter points down in to this lower frequency range to improve controllability. Last time I checked, the Audyssey MultiEQ app was around £20 sterling. That's worth it in my book for the extra control it gives if you're interested in tweaking.

There's an Audyssey Pro kit for dealers/installers only. It's a more expensive bit of kit with better mics, a special pre-amp and access to create custom filters that better suit an individual room. Have a chat about this service with your dealer.

Bottom line - XT32 is less invasive than the simpler XT system in the upper frequency range if you just want to press the auto button. XT and XT32 are equal if you get the app and put in a bit of time to tweak. XT32 doesn't offer any advantages I can see if you go for a pro-install set-up and the dealer knows their stuff.
 
Amazing Lucid, thank you! Lots to take in and incredibly informative as always.

I might as well hijack my own thread whilst we are here. Fixed frame projector screens, any recommendations? Probably looking for something around the 80-90 inch size. I haven't started googling any yet.
 
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Phate said:
Amazing Lucid, thank you! Lots to take in and incredibly informative as always.

I might as well hijack my own thread whilst we are here. Fixed frame projector screens, any recommendations? Probably looking for something around the 80-90 inch size. I haven't started googling any yet.
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I've fitted most fixed frame screens from Stewart at the top end down to the budgets screens such as Luxberg. To give you an idea, prices range from around £2500 down under £200 for a 90-100. I've also used commercial paint-on-the-wall screen paints such as Screen Goo and Smartersurfaces.

Stewarts are expensive but, IMO, with the right room and projector combo they are unmatched. When you walk in to a room with an image projected on to a Stewart it's like you spent double on the projector budget. The image just pops and has focus like nothing else I've encountered.

In the mid-range (for me at least) Draper, Da-Lite and Screenline are all pretty close. The screen surface has nice density (not opaque as in cheaper vinyl screens), good colour neutrality (no noticeable tinting of the image and no colour shifts when viewed off axis), and the focus is pretty good. I tend to use Screenline for matte whites more than Draper or Da-Lite. The build and performance is the same but the cost is around 20% lower on a like-for-like basis. Screenline is an Italian manufacturer, so I would expect that you could source the product fairly easily from Portugal.

Speaking of build; something that's important to me is the time to erect. With better quality screens they go together easier, and don't require much fiddling around to get the frame squared up. I also find that the wall fittings are better designed. With the budget Chinese screens it takes a lot more effort to put them together. For example, the couple of Luxbergs I've fitted both required the frames to be drilled out to get the corner fittings to line up, then a fair bit of tightening-loosening-retightening of screws between measurings to get the frame alignment correct. The final results looked fine, but it took an extra 90 minutes plus cleaning up the aluminium swarf not to mention the risk to the velvet finish from all the additional handling.

On the lower-cost screens the frames aren't as wide (1.5" versus 2.5~3"), the velvet isn't as plush nor as dark looking, and the screen surface itself thinner and more translucent. The difference that makes is sort of like the step in brightness between running the projector in high power versus eco mode. Focus is slightly softer too; not massively noticeable, but just not as crisp. Having said that, both rooms were bat caves, neither screen was huge, and the JVC 30 and 35 projectors had enough poke and contrast even on eco mode that in isolation the installs still looked impressive to the clients.

What projector do you plan to use, what will the lighting conditions be like, and have you a budget in mind for the screen?
 
Hi Lucid,

Thanks again, I have not seen or heard of Screenline but will check them out. One I had seen was the Elite screens range. For me I am kind of guessing wall sizes based on photos from my new apartment so I don't know final sizes yet. I *think* its a 3m wall space, so if we take the Dali Opteron LCR On Walls and give them a 5-10cm boarder for spacing this gives room for about 190cm of screen. Depending on the screen this is somewhere approximately in the 84-92" range. But its fun to look online and day dream :p :D - I get the keys on the 25th so I don't have long to wait until I can get in with a measuring tape and figure out my layout.

With the Elite Screens I need to look up the difference between the CineWhite which I can get for €450 and the CineGrey 5D for €699 (both from Amazon.es on an initial look)

What projector do you plan to use, what will the lighting conditions be like, and have you a budget in mind for the screen?
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I still have my Optoma HD30 which is functioning fine. I plan to use this until the bulb goes or it malfunctions then I will replace it with (from what I've seen so far) an Optoma UHD60 - Light conditions, well the apartment (like all in Portugal) has blackout fixed shutters so I can pitch black the room at any time for full on movie experience. I plan on painting the projecting wall a matt colour as like a feature wall plus to reduce reflections also. I'll have some Philips Hue lamps and things around the room for ambient lighting so its fully controllable environment.

Budget wise....well, no honestly not. I guess from your previous post I would be looking at more the mid-range. €2500 on a screen at this stage would take some time to save up and purchase, whereas a mid-range for less than €1000 is doable more or less straight away. I currently own an electronic Sapphire 92" dropdown screen which I could fit on a temporary basis if I decide to save up for something in the higher range. But at the same time I imagine one of these Elite Screens (as an example) would be a nice upgrade, and to add, I was never disappointed with the Sapphires image. Apologies that this does not answer your question very well. I will take a look at the other brands you mentioned and see what they have.
 
I remember Elite; first from from schools in the 80s with their biscuit-tin overhead projectors (OHPs) and the cylindrically-cased tripod screens with the wobbly legs and floppy screen edges. Then from the late 90s as the electric/manual screen of choice for tight-fisted pub landlords up and down England and Wales. lol I'm glad you're looking at their EZframe variants. They do the same CineWhite surface in a basic wall frame for around £180 (equiv' €209) delivered in the UK, but the reviews are less than spectacular.

Read the reviews on the CineWhite material carefully. There are a few comments about hotspotting and colour shifts.

Optoma HD30.... I have a bit of a soft spot for that projector. It responds really very well to calibration. I did a whole bunch of them over an 18 month period for a dealer up in Colne. Once tweaked up, it kicked the stuffing out of anything else below £1800.
 
You were the one to recommend me the HD30 in the first place :) - its been a spectacular projector. I always intended to get it professionally calibrated but didn't get around to it. In the end I googled and found some recommended calibration settings from AVForums I believe and it made a really nice difference.

I did drop it a while back so it can artifact at times but generally providing it remains undisturbed its fine. Which obviously for the majority of its time, it is.

I'll check the reviews and let you know what I find!
 
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