Anyone else fed up of mass-produced, disposable carp?

Companies like Richer sounds and John Lewis offer extended warranties as standard on their TVs. How can they do it yet pretty much everyone else can’t or won’t.

I struggle to believe like Foxeye that it’s not possible to make better, more reliable products for a similar or slightly higher price. It’s possible that they can but as it stands do not have the impetus to do it. Why should they if people are happy to pay money for what they are getting.

I brought a second hand washing machine that was not very old because the machine developed a horrible grinding/ rattling noise. The previous owner literally went out and brought the exact same machine as a replacement. It took me an hour or so to find the problem which was a loose plastic pump impeller. An hour or so of my time and some super glue later I had a fully functioning, rather cheap, perfectly good washing machine.

Their loss was my gain :). Except rather than requiring one washing machine and all the parts and resources that required to make it, they spent twice the money to purchase 2 machines because a cheaply made plastic pump had failed.

We really need to start moving away from the short sighted money motivated thinking, to a more longer term bigger picture way of thinking.
 
413x said:
What gets me is the really expensive stuff (like computer monitors) that only have a 2 year guarantee.
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If something fails on a monitor after just a few years, you have a very good case that it was faulty at purchase, and are entitled to a repair. Guarantees are a lot of BS usually, stick to your consumer rights.
 
413x said:
Probably.

If something is 1k I'd want it to last 5 years guaranteed

Why bought my TV from JL
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We should be clear that a warranty doesn’t necessarily mean that a single item will last that period of time it just means you get to enjoy the benefits of that product for a guaranteed period of time. You may have a £200 washing machine sold for £1000 with a 10 year guarantee that the manufacturer replaces 4 times during the length of the warranty. Or you may have a £900 washing machine sold for £1000 where the single machine lasts the full 10 years. Both products cost the same amount and are guaranteed to last the same amount of time but the £900 washing machine that lasts the entire 10 years is much much better for the environment than the £200 washing machine replaced 4 times. Manufacturers will go for the £200 machine that costs £1000 because there’s a chance that they make £800 profit if they never have to replace the machine. If they make the £900 machine they only make £100.

The point I am making is that an extended warranty is not a means by which we can reduce the amount of ‘stuff’ being produced, it just makes everything more expensive up-front. We’d need entirely new laws and legislation to reduce the amount of stuff being produced.
 
Both you and foxeye are quite obviously not engineers. Quality costs money, the ultimate expression of that is Space, where everything is qualified to death as the price of failure when sending things out to Space is quite eye watering. I’m an engineer and we design products that are contracted to last 10 to 15 years. That doesn’t mean 10 to 15 years of constant use but use of a certain amount of hours within a 10 to 15 year period.

Every component has a lifespan and within that lifespan the environment shortens that lifespan even further, then you have usage profile which affects life, component derating etc. Even if you had a brand new product, say a washing machine as that’s what people have been talking about so far, so say you buy this brand new washing machine and you left it in the box and never used it, there is no guarantee that product will even work after say 15 years as components age over time and is dependant on reasonable storage conditions.

So yes, you can engineer things to last a lot longer but it comes at a price. At one end you can either select your components and qualify them using accelerated life tests before you use them or at the other end you select components and go at risk and accept a certain amount of failures with a set low level of qualification for safety and warranty against that risk and all the steps in between where you only qualify safety critical parts etc. Quality normally doesn’t come for free
 
Doobedoo said:
Companies like Richer sounds and John Lewis offer extended warranties as standard on their TVs. How can they do it yet pretty much everyone else can’t or won’t.

I struggle to believe like Foxeye that it’s not possible to make better, more reliable products for a similar or slightly higher price. It’s possible that they can but as it stands do not have the impetus to do it. Why should they if people are happy to pay money for what they are getting.

I brought a second hand washing machine that was not very old because the machine developed a horrible grinding/ rattling noise. The previous owner literally went out and brought the exact same machine as a replacement. It took me an hour or so to find the problem which was a loose plastic pump impeller. An hour or so of my time and some super glue later I had a fully functioning, rather cheap, perfectly good washing machine.

Their loss was my gain :). Except rather than requiring one washing machine and all the parts and resources that required to make it, they spent twice the money to purchase 2 machines because a cheaply made plastic pump had failed.

We really need to start moving away from the short sighted money motivated thinking, to a more longer term bigger picture way of thinking.
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That analogy of it being cheap to fix etc. applies to most things though. It's a question of what you value - time vs money/effort etc. I hired someone to paint my flat. Doing it myself would be significantly cheaper but take a lot more time/effort. On the other hand, I'm into computers and have built up some knowledge (probably less than most people on this forum, but more than most people I know) so if something became faulty there software wise, I'd probably be able to fix it (and kind of enjoy it) and diagnose hardware faults as well maybe. Given all of that, I'm not likely to hire anyone to fix my computer, at least not for simple issues. What I define simple as though may be quite different to someone else. You figured out the problem with the washing machine quickly, but the previous owner might not have been able to and rather than spending time and effort in figuring it out, buying a new one was more appropriate.

Re. JL and TV warranties, I imagine (though just a guess) that since consumer rights frankly offer you that long, or longer, anyway, and they'd need to honour it for something like a TV, they decided to instead turn it into a selling point instead of arguing every instance. Though I guess most people don't know about/don't choose to enforce their consumer rights. Personally, I know in detail about them, but never bother trying to enforce them because it's not really worth the effort and I haven't had any serious issues like that with anything pricey that I've purchased.

On monitors - my current one is now 14 years old and I'm still quite happy with it. It was expensive when I bought it, became faulty maybe 5 or so years ago and I spent £100 getting it fixed, and it's now still working. All the warranty is a guarantee that it won't become faulty within a set period - it doesn't mean that it'll definitely fail afterwards. Could go on and last forever!
 
I saw this yesterday and found it very interesting, it is kind of the same principle, albeit not electronics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK4AWtTV3h4

https://www.ernestwright.co.uk/

There is also the benefit that if something is priced higher then you will treat it better and not as a disposable, therefore it will last longer naturally as a result.

I've always been of the mindset that in most cases if you buy cheap you buy twice (or more). I only have anecdotal evidence of this being the case, such as my Liebherr fridge vs the Indesit of my mums, hers was an uneconomical repair after 4 years, 8 years in and mine is like new. My LG washing machine is 6 years old and has never had an issue, my mother in law is on her 3rd Hotpoint in 7/8 years. I've also benefited from a new for old 5 year warranty after about 4 years and 10 months on a Plasma TV a few years back. It's not conclusive, but based on my experience I will continue to pay a slight premium if I think it is worth it.
 
The “anti-consumerism” movement haven’t really proposed what will happen to all the people employed in retail, finance, sales, distribution, design/manufacturing who will lose their livelihoods if people strongly curtail spending their hard earned on widgets/services.

We are already seeing what happens if you shut down vast swathes of your economy wholesale- unprecedented state intervention is required to possibly prevent the country falling into civil unrest. Much is made of the environmental cost of buying new items, but less of the benefits to consumers in respect of huge used goods markets (particularly cars!), which enable those with reduced purchasing power/inclination to spend less to experience that product.
 
Fusion said:
The “anti-consumerism” movement haven’t really proposed what will happen to all the people employed in retail, finance, sales, distribution, design/manufacturing who will lose their livelihoods if people strongly curtail spending their hard earned on widgets/services.

We are already seeing what happens if you shut down vast swathes of your economy wholesale- unprecedented state intervention is required to possibly prevent the country falling into civil unrest. Much is made of the environmental cost of buying new items, but less of the benefits to consumers in respect of huge used goods markets (particularly cars!), which enable those with reduced purchasing power/inclination to spend less to experience that product.
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Exactly. It’s basically like asking capitalism to stop.
 
mrochester said:
Exactly. It’s basically like asking capitalism to stop.
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No it’s not. You can’t for instance claim on one hand (not you personally) that we are destroying the planet because we a naughty little compulsive consumers, then on the other hand saying it acceptable to make deliberately inferior products, because, well we like more zeros added to our balance sheet.

Being more responsible with the way we manufacture and buy things is not a bad thing.

It’s like the Trump thing when he announces, screw it we not going to go down the renewable energy route because using coal is more beneficial to our economy. Everyone jumps up and down and then on the other hand makes an argument about throwaway disposable consumer goods, because, well capitalism is good and socialism is bad.
 
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Doobedoo said:
No it’s not. You can’t for instance claim on one hand (not you personally) that we are destroying the planet because we a naughty little compulsive consumers, then on the other hand saying it acceptable to make deliberately inferior products, because, well we like more zeros added to our balance sheet.

Being more responsible with the way we manufacture and buy things is not a bad thing.

It’s like the Trump thing when he announces, screw it we not going to go down the renewable energy route because using coal is more beneficial to our economy. Everyone jumps up and down and then on the other hand makes an argument about throwaway disposable consumer goods, because, well capitalism is good and socialism is bad.
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I agree we should buy less AND produce fewer, higher quality products. But we need to incentivise that behaviour as it is the opposite of the capitalist race to the bottom.
 
Another point I’d like to make.

Low end doesn’t have to mean cheap and unreliable and high end doesn’t have to mean premium reliability. It can simple be a difference in feature set.

If you just want a washing machine that just washes clothes economically then get low end. If you want a washing machine that washes clothes economical with all the bells and whistles then buy high end. The consumer will pick what he wants or can afford but never the less should expect a machine that lasts a reasonable amount of time.

Another example if the cost of a plastic pump impeller cost let’s say £1 to buy or make but a metal impeller costs £2.50 to make or buy. I’m fairly sure a person would pay an extra £1.50 to have the better impeller.
 
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Doobedoo said:
Another point I’d like to make.

Low end doesn’t have to mean cheap and unreliable and high end doesn’t have to mean premium reliability. It can simple be a difference in feature set.

If you just want a washing that just washes clothes economically then get low end. If you want a washing machine that wash clothes economical and with all the bells and whistles then buy high end. The consumer will pick what he wants or can afford but never the less should expect a machine that lasts a reasonable amount of time.
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That assumes the only difference between the machines are the extra features and that all other components are the same. In some cases that might be true but in others it won’t.
 
mrochester said:
That assumes the only difference between the machines are the extra features and that all other components are the same. In some cases that might be true but in others it won’t.
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No I’m just giving an example as another poster made a point about pricing the less well off out the market.

Its like you said they need incentivising and sadly that’s usually more effective when it comes in the form of a financial penalty.
 
Doobedoo said:
deliberately inferior products
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To what degree should something be made “better”, though? A lot has been mentioned about British manufacturing, as well as making things with increased quality and longevity. Both of these things mean a big hike in prices.

Let’s take washing machines for example, seeing as they seem to be a favoured discussion item. That might mean that the entry point for your better machine is £500 rather than £200, which means it’s out of reach for a significant number of people, unless they take out credit which makes it even more expensive. We’d perhaps see similar relative price hikes for all domestic appliances, electronics, not to mention non electrical items like furniture and clothing (go look at the price of a Derbyshire-made merino wool jumper from John Smedley. Then look at the price of one from Primark. Edit: for reference, excluding sale prices, it’s £165 vs £12!).
 
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Doobedoo said:
No I’m just giving an example as another poster made a point about pricing the less well off out the market.

Its like you said they need incentivising and sadly that’s usually more effective when it comes in the form of a financial penalty.
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This is why I said it’s a bit like asking capitalism to stop. The whole premise of capitalism is that there is a financial incentive to cut costs and increase revenue. We would need to eliminate that financial incentive and replace it with a new incentive or impose very heavy fines for non-compliance.
 
mrochester said:
This is why I said it’s a bit like asking capitalism to stop. The whole premise of capitalism is that there is a financial incentive to cut costs and increase revenue. We would need to eliminate that financial incentive and replace it with a new incentive or impose very heavy fines for non-compliance.
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Yeah I get that but that is the ugly side of capitalism. Fines are a form of a financial incentive but something simple like mandatory 5-10 year warranties and let them work out how to do it or just out the way and someone else will fill the gap.
Like the butterfly effect your always going to have ripples but if you don’t try you’ll never succeed.
 
Doobedoo said:
Yeah I get that but that is the ugly side of capitalism. Fines are a form of a financial incentive but something simple like mandatory 5-10 year warranties and let them work out how to do it.
Like the butterfly effect your always going to have ripples but if you don’t try you’ll never succeed.
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But as per my example above I’m not sure if mandatory 5-10 year warranties would help. Most manufacturers will simply gamble that their cheap machine will last 5-10 years than create a single expensive machine that definitely will as the financial incentive is likely to be to gamble. But that way also means you build more machines to replace those that do break down in the 5-10 year period.

What you need is a maximum profit margin % and a minimum cost. So a £1000 machine with a max 20% margin must cost £800 to make, the assumption being that the £800 machine will last longer and thus stop the manufacturer producing 4 £200 machines instead.

But then that is essentially like saying washing machine manufacturing should be state controlled as every machine will be £1000 to buy and £800 to produce, thus eliminating the point of a competitive market.
 
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