ARM-based computing

[HACO]

Since we're getting closer to Apple's release of ARM-based macs, great success of Graviton2 on AWS, Fujitsu building world's fastest supercomputer with ARM, we should have a topic for it here. We're getting to a point where desktop/server/workstation ARM will become more commonplace as time goes on.

Gigabyte today announced a motherboard for Ampere Altra ARM processors which are used in servers:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/1594...ytes-2u-with-80-arm-n1-cores-pcie-40-and-ccix

Ampere's product lineup includes ARM processors using 24 cores, up to 80, running at up to 3.3GHz @ 250w. They support up to 4TB of 8-channel DDR4-3200, 128 lanes of PCIe 4 and support for CCIX. We will see 128-core variants next year.

https://images.anandtech.com/doci/15949/Altra5_575px.png

https://images.anandtech.com/doci/15949/Altra6.png

https://images.anandtech.com/doci/15949/AmpereLaunch-page-008_575px.jpg

**Do not Hotlink Images **

Obviously the biggest challenge right now is actually getting software ready for these processors. Linux on ARM is pretty good, and a lot of major packages work really well, but smaller and more niche stuff aren't optimised yet. We're going to wait and see how that turns out.

 

[random_matt]

Apple won't have fully embraced it for two years or so I reckon. Still strange why they don't just use Ryzen in the meantime.

 

[HACO]

Apple won't have fully embraced it for two years or so I reckon. Still strange why they don't just use Ryzen in the meantime.

I doubt any existing product lineups gets more than one x86 upgrade before they fully migrate to arm. Probably not worth it for just one generation.

 

[Zefan]

Very interesting times ahead, somehow Coreteks called this over 18 months ago. Obviously it's old news now but it's a good background in to the reasons why this is happening and I highly recommend his channel to any hardware enthusiasts.

 

[HACO]

Huawei's 24-Core 7nm Kunpeng CPU Allegedly Beats Core i9-9900K In Multi-Core Performance

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/h...tches-core-i9-9900k-in-multi-core-performance

Not a proper benchmark though, so take everything with a grain of salt. Seems like at 250w, for multi-threaded tasks, x86 already has a competitor. These ARM N1 cores however are not competitive at single-threaded workloads, which is the true benchmark in the end. You can always add more cores, but making each core faster is the real challenge.

 

[Freddie1980]

It would be great if Sony and Microsoft encouraged AMD to develop an ARM based APU for it's next generation of consoles. For the PC just imagine the choice of CPU's we could have if there the everyday software we use was written for ARM instead of x-86.

 

[HACO]

It would be great if Sony and Microsoft encouraged AMD to develop an ARM based APU for it's next generation of consoles. For the PC just imagine the choice of CPU's we could have if there the everyday software we use was written for ARM instead of x-86.

Yeah I think we'll see it sooner or later in consoles. If Nvidia ever wants to power up another Microsoft or Sony console, it won't be on x86 as the only SoC that they'd be able to offer would need to use ARM (like Nintendo's). Microsoft and Sony will probably make massive cost savings if they were to move away from x86, both in terms of chip costs but also in terms of general hardware design (better performance per watt means smaller console design, less cooling, less power delivery, etc).

The counter-argument is that single-threaded performance still matters a lot to gaming (and will probably continue to matter a lot), and outside of Apple nobody on the ARM scene is anywhere near matching x86 levels. But that might change by the time they want to design PS6/Xbox whatever.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

We've been using a couple of Raspberry Pi 4's as internet stations for the kids (homework/Roblox/Youtube/Steam link gaming etc) - been working fine. We're definitely at a point where even low cost ARM devices can take over basic computing uses.

 

[Quartz]

Does no one else remember the Acorn Archimedes?

 

[Rroff]

Does no one else remember the Acorn Archimedes?

Showing your age

I was at school as the Archimedes 300/400 series were phasing out and the 3000 series Acorns coming in and was in awe of the 5000 series LOL. Honestly that OS from 3.1 onwards was so far ahead of its time it is unreal.

I still have a fully functional image of my old A3010 booted in Red Squirrel in Windows but sadly lost a lot of my old files - I create a couple of pretty decent games back then and 1-2 programs like a media player - still have Martyn Fox's programming guide heh.

 

[Quartz]

Showing your age

Loud and proud!

 

[4K8KW10]

RISC is better than CISC because it consumes much less power for the same job done.

NUVIA Phoenix Targets +40-50% ST Performance Over Zen 2 for Only 33% the Power
https://www.anandtech.com/show/1596...0-st-performance-over-zen-2-for-only-33-power


ARM saves power and space. You can make tiny PCs measuring in dimensions similar to modern phones, and achieve very high performance still, doing office tasks, some lighter gaming, etc:

 

[CuriousTomCat]

Does no one else remember the Acorn Archimedes?

Yes they had one in C.D.T at school. i used to stay behind after school to play lemmings on it.

 

[HACO]

RISC is better than CISC because it consumes much less power for the same job done.

NUVIA Phoenix Targets +40-50% ST Performance Over Zen 2 for Only 33% the Power
https://www.anandtech.com/show/1596...0-st-performance-over-zen-2-for-only-33-power


ARM saves power and space. You can make tiny PCs measuring in dimensions similar to modern phones, and achieve very high performance still, doing office tasks, some lighter gaming, etc:

RISC vs CISC debate has been over for a very long time, all modern processors are internally RISC (even if they’re externally CISC).

Nuvia is very exciting because it’s effectively created by the industry’s best and brightest. I’m really hopeful they’ll just produce Apple-level ARM chips for everyone.

 

[4K8KW10]

RISC vs CISC debate has been over for a very long time, all modern processors are internally RISC (even if they’re externally CISC).

Nuvia is very exciting because it’s effectively created by the industry’s best and brightest. I’m really hopeful they’ll just produce Apple-level ARM chips for everyone.

There are articles regularly published and the topic is very hot right now:

RISC vs. CISC Architectures: Which one is better?
https://www.microcontrollertips.com/risc-vs-cisc-architectures-one-better/


x86 Lacks Innovation, Arm is Catching up. Enough to Replace the Giant?
https://www.techpowerup.com/265303/...rm-is-catching-up-enough-to-replace-the-giant

 

[Armageus]

There are articles regularly published and the topic is very hot right now:

You've missed the point again - all current x86 chips are essentially RISC internally anyway. Any "Complex" instructions are decoded and split into a "Reduced" set of micro ops.

It's even explained by someone in the comments to that article:
https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/posts/4240138

The fundamental difference between x86 and ARM is that ARM is load-store and x86 isn't. x86 does the implied memory operations as part of the instruction. x86 is far more versatile because of that: it can take high concepts (instructions) and cook them into rapid results by maximizing load across the execution units. ARM has taken a similar approach but...that memory micromanagement required by the compiler/developer...

Everything is RISC with a CISC wrapper these days.

 

[HACO]

There are articles regularly published and the topic is very hot right now:

RISC vs. CISC Architectures: Which one is better?
https://www.microcontrollertips.com/risc-vs-cisc-architectures-one-better/


x86 Lacks Innovation, Arm is Catching up. Enough to Replace the Giant?
https://www.techpowerup.com/265303/...rm-is-catching-up-enough-to-replace-the-giant

My point was, as Armageus pointed out, there is no debate among chip designers about this. All chips (including x86) are RISC internally. They've decided this long long ago. Nobody makes CISC chips anymore.

Lack of (or slow) innovation in x86 is true, ARM catching up is true, ARM chips generally being better at performance per Watt is true, but this isn't about RISC vs CISC. It hasn't been for a very long time.

 

[4K8KW10]

My point was, as Armageus pointed out, there is no debate among chip designers about this. All chips (including x86) are RISC internally. They've decided this long long ago. Nobody makes CISC chips anymore.

Lack of (or slow) innovation in x86 is true, ARM catching up is true, ARM chips generally being better at performance per Watt is true, but this isn't about RISC vs CISC. It hasn't been for a very long time.

What is the reason for x86 to be so inefficient if it isn't in its nature as a pure CISC architecture?

Remind you that you can get a smartphone SoC (that lasts up to a month on its battery and 2-3 days with moderate apps use) that can do everything and more than a typical office PC.

 

[HACO]

What is the reason for x86 to be so inefficient if it isn't in its nature as a pure CISC architecture?

Many reasons (maintaining compatibility, different application targets, poor legacy design decisions and more). Like we said, since the mid-1990s all x86 processors from Intel and AMD have been RISC internally and use ISA decoding. The power overhead of micro-ops decoding is less than 15-20%.

x86 could well become competitive in performance per watt if Intel and AMD prioritised that application target (they just haven’t yet), and they probably will if ARM designs continue to close down the gap and we get good Windows software support for ARM in laptops. Intel and AMD just haven’t felt the need yet (Intel made some attempts, but failed).

There’s no magic here, ARM’s efficient designs also come with their own trade-offs. Apple’s A13 Lightning cores, for example, have more transistors than Intel’s i9 10900K cores. They can afford to make these huge chips because they don’t need to make a margin on the chip itself so it gives them an advantage that Intel and AMD don’t have.

Remind you that you can get a smartphone SoC (that lasts up to a month on its battery and 2-3 days with moderate apps use) that can do everything and more than a typical office PC.

No need to remind me, I’ve been saying this for a very long time. Apple’s performance cores are basically as good as the fastest Intel ones at much lower power (like i9 10900K, not just the typical office PC stuff). Not sure how that’s relevant though.

 

[Blackjack Davy]

Does no one else remember the Acorn Archimedes?

Had one with one of the original ARM1 chips in it iirc from Acorn Risc Machines later Advanced Risc Machines. Was mightily impressed with it at the time always wondered when I'd get another ARM chip in my regular desktop, its been too long.