Arsenal FC - A complete shambles. What needs to change? *Please read OP before posting*

Status
Not open for further replies.

BaZ87

BaZ87

BaZ87

Don
Joined
9 Jun 2004
Posts
47,211
Thread reopened to discuss the Wenger/Kroenke situation only.

Do not post spoilers or specific game talk in here and do not turn this into a transfer thread. I understand there will be some overlap but any post where the main point is transfer related will be deleted and sanctioned as per the OP as will any post that could be interpreted as a spoiler.

Due to the issues within the Arsenal thread, the same strike system will be implemented here:

Strike 1 - 7 day thread ban
Strike 2 - 30 day thread ban and 1 week forum suspension
Strike 3 - Permanent thread ban and 2 week forum suspension
 
Last edited:
Yea, the poll wasn't exactly serious. You're more than welcome to write a post detailing who you think is to blame and what needs to be done to turn things around.
 
I mentioned something in one of the threads a week or 2 back, occasionally managers find themselves in a position where there's no longer anything they can do - the end of Rodgers time at Liverpool, Moyes at Utd, Ranieri this season and even Mourinho last season at Chelsea. Sometimes managers just go stale, sometimes the players just need a new voice giving them instructions because nothing that manager will do will work.

Wenger looks lost to me. I think Neville made the point the other week on Sky - even over the last 10 years when Arsenal haven't truly competed, they've always had an identity. They were the best footballing side in the league and even the teams that would eventually go on to win the league would go to the Emirates and know they had to dig in because if they tried to out play Arsenal they'd come unstuck. That's no longer the case now and probably hasn't been for a few seasons. All the calls for Wenger to be more pragmatic has led to Arsenal no longer having an identity and to make things worse, they still haven't fixed any of their weaknesses.

Even if Wenger could work what needs to be done to rectify Arsenal's problems, I just don't see how he can implement them. He's lost the support of too many of the players and more importantly too many of the supporters. Arsenal have become a toxic club and no matter how good a run they go on, all the anger will spill over the second they have another poor result and I can't see how that will ever change.
 
Supporters want progress - it doesn't matter where you finish last season, they want to believe the team is moving forwards. Arsenal's problem isn't that they've done poorly in any given season because in reality they've not, they've just stood still for 10 years.
 
Trusty said:
If Klopp stays still with Liverpool for 5 years, will you want him out even though he's a good manager and plays good football? Its a tough decision. Say next season, you finish 5th, win a league cup and get knocked out in the last 8, will you stand by him?
Click to expand...

As I said, it's about progress. If after 4 seasons we're still hovering in the same position and there's no sign that we're getting nearer to the top then fans will want a change. That's not to mean he'd have done a bad job. Discounting another Leicester scenario, we're still in a position now where Liverpool (or Arsenal) have 5 other sides that in any season could finish above them. All 6 sides can't qualify for the CL let alone finish 1st - you have to look a bit deeper and ask yourself whether things are improving and if not, will they in the future.
B1gbeard said:
How is that any different to Liverpool, who have managed to be completely mediocre while playing the manager merry go round for years and years? I'd rather Arsenal's last 20 years and where we are at the mo over Liverpool any day.
Click to expand...
Why are you being so defensive? :confused:

If you read through my posts regarding Liverpool over the last 7 years or so you'll see I've been more critical of our club than anybody. Chopping and changing every 5 minutes most certainly isn't the answer but there's a huge jump from that to the situation at Arsenal. If Wenger had been at the club 2 seasons and there were signs that things were moving forwards then great. Can any Arsenal supporter say there's been progress at Arsenal in the past 10 years though? Looking from the outside I don't see it.

As I said, Arsenal haven't underperformed in any given season over those 10 years - they've always finished in the position they've supposed to be, give or take. The problem is that nothing is changing, there's no signs of progress and it's difficult to see if how things will improve under Wenger. If Arsenal fans are happy to finish between 5th-2nd every season, get to the last 16 of the CL and win a domestic cup every few years then fair enough but the growing unrest suggests they're not.

Two seasons ago you finished above Spurs but the general feeling was Spurs had the better season, why? It wasn't just because Spurs have fewer resources, it was because there was clear progress from Spurs. They were building a side and things were improving. Arsenal was the same old Arsenal, they'll threaten to challenge and then when it counts they'll fall away only to come back strong in the final weeks, when it's too little too late.
 
I'm pretty sure I answered that already. If supporters see and believe things are moving in the right direction then they'll give a manager time. The moment when you find yourself wondering how things will improve is the moment you start seeing unrest. Whether it's Arsenal or Liverpool, the objective has got to be challenging and winning the biggest titles - if you're happy with just playing nice football then you may as well support West Ham.
 
B1gbeard said:
Apologies if it came across that way.

My point is two fold. Liverpool have been doing exactly what people are suggesting Arsenal do and it hasn't worked. I like Klopp a lot but he is erratic and I don't see Liverpool winning the PL or CL in the next 5 years.

Also maybe Arsenal and Liverpool are where we are because of forces outside of our control. Whatever nonsense is spouted about season ticket prices and how we've had or spent fortunes, we cannot compete financially with 3 of the other teams in the leagues (I have no idea about Liverpool's finances), no where near. Anyone saying Arsenal should be progressing I ask how, in light of the fact that some teams can spend on one or two players without breaking a sweat what our whole transfer budget is? Highest season ticket prices means nothing next to a Russian or Arab sugar daddy.
Click to expand...

Surely you can see the difference between changing manager every 2 years and changing every 20 years? Between Benitez leaving and Rodgers arriving Liverpool were in a stage where they were a mess - there was no proper plan or vision in place and we were making changes for the sake of change. Rodgers appointment was a sign that the club was beginning to sort itself out but ultimately he proved not to be the right man - he reached the stage Wenger's been at these past couple of years, where you just don't know how things will improve and a change had to be made.

Whether Klopp turns out to be the right man and whether he can take the club forward and challenge for those titles, only time will tell. But as a supporter I want to see the club trying to improve, not settling for 4th or 5th because that's where people say they should finish. You ask how Arsenal can improve when there's 3 sides with more money than them - take a look down the road at Spurs. They've got 5 sides with more money than them - they have far fewer resources than Liverpool, let alone Utd or City but they've managed to improve over the last few years, finishing 3rd and now 2nd. Liverpool very nearly won the league a few seasons ago with 4 clubs having greater resources than them. It's not easy and it would be harsh to say a manager has failed if they can't bridge the financial gap but it's possible - you've got to be smarter, you've got to do things a bit differently and it will probably take a bit more time to achieve.

As I've said, Arsenal haven't really underachieved the last 10 years - they've finished where they should finish give or take a place or 2 every season. The discontent among supporters show you that they're not satisfied with that though - they want to believe that things can improve and don't see how Wenger can do that.

For that reason I'd want Wenger to go if I was an Arsenal fan but even if I was one of the few that was happy coasting along, finishing where the club 'should' finish, there's another reason why I'd still want him to leave. Arsenal have become a toxic club. Wenger has lost too many of the supporters and they're past the point of no return. Everything Wenger does is wrong in their eyes - if you win it's despite of him and the first time you drop points all hell will break loose again. The negativity around Arsenal won't change while Wenger remains at the club*. Sometimes a club needs a fresh start and that's never been truer than at Arsenal.

*Short of him winning every game until Christmas.
 
B1gbeard said:
Want and should is the thing. I want and want to believe that Arsenal progress to a point where they can win the league but I guess my expectation is that I don't think they can whoever is in charge because of the financial state of the game. It's possible of course but extremely unlikely. For all of their progress this season, I don't think Spurs will get near it next season either. I don't feel I am being defeatist or wanting to coast along (and I think there are more than a few who feel that way).

Spurs are the anomaly at the moment but they still have a lot to prove. Poch has done amazingly well by buying strong, young hungry players but the next few seasons are the real test. It's also taken them decades of rubbish to get to this point. I said in another post that Arsenal certainly missed a lot of great players when they became available in the last few years which is disappointing but then everyone's scouting is awesome now so.

I would have liked to see a change this season because I have great respect for Arsene and hate to see the hate he is getting but also as you said, the club needs something fresh.

I do think that Arsenal and Arsene will improve next season though. I don't think the formation change was just a psychological change for the team. Some players who's form had been poor for some time started to flourish and look like the players they should be. I hope Arsene sticks with it.
Click to expand...

You say you don't think it's possible but Spurs have shown that it is. They might not have won the League but the 86 points they got would have won them the League in a lot of other seasons.

And what gives you the confidence to believe things will improve next season? What's going to change? You mention the new system but hasn't Wenger all but said it was a short term fix and he prefers playing 4 at the back so he can have an extra midfielder?
 
Ok, we're no longer discussing what this thread was set up for. Wenger's now signed his contract and there's no sign of the board or structure of the club changing. I'll give you until Sunday to finish discussing the rights and wrongs of Wenger staying and then this thread is being closed.
 
Thread reopened to discuss the Wenger/Kroenke situation only.

Do not post spoilers or specific game talk in here and do not turn this into a transfer thread. I understand there will be some overlap but any post where the main point is transfer related will be deleted and sanctioned as per the OP as will any post that could be interpreted as a spoiler.
 
beachBOYken said:
@BaZ87

Hi

Reading your post above, are you saying we can only talk about Wenger/Kroenke only, what about general player talk?

Thank's
Click to expand...
General chit chat about minor issues, whether that be players, injuries, tactics or new sponsorship agreements go in the general Arsenal thread. Any larger issues, such as discussion around the ownership, structure of the club and managers future need to have their own separate thread, which is why this thread was created for that.

Just so everything is clear:

1. If your post is just general chit chat = Arsenal thread.
2. If it's related to the issues around the ownership and manager = this thread.
3. Transfer talk = transfer thread.
4. Discussion relating to specific matches = weekend/midweek spoilers threads.
5. If it's a new, large topic = start a new separate thread.
 
Re Arsenal's finances, there's a theory that Arsenal need to keep their cash levels up because of loans Kroenke has or will take out over in the US. He's in the process of financing the most expensive stadium of all time and people are speculating that his shareholding in Arsenal may be used as security on that. Possible terms of that agreement could be linked to Arsenal's cash balance.

The Glazer's had a similar thing in place some years ago where some of their personal borrowings (to buy Utd) were secured against their shares and the interest rate charged was dependent on the state of their balance sheet.

edit: here we go

https://www.ft.com/content/f710bef4-0608-11df-8c97-00144feabdc0

Utd's net debt needed to be no more than 5.2 times their EBITA.

A similar deal for Kroenke would go a long way to explaining why Arsenal have kept their cash balance so high.
 
Aneskimo said:
Good read that, but this also highlights the difference between glazers/kroenke yes man u have not been as successful as when Fergie was there but they have tried different managers with transfer backing and show some sort of interest in the team. Kroenke doesn't show anything apart from where you look at arsenals finances he takes his 3 million fees :mad:
Click to expand...

The Glazers tried different managers and found their wallet when Utd fell out of the CL. They don't care about the team, they care about Man Utd making money. If Wenger misses out on the CL again he'll be gone but for the time being Kroenke see's Wenger has his safest bet to get back into the CL without spending £150m.
 
Practically no owners spend their money, they spend the money the clubs generate. As long as he believes Wenger's the best/most efficient person to get Arsenal back into the CL then Wenger's safe. If and when it looks unlikely that Wenger can, then he'll make a change or loosen the purse strings.
 
Possibly but it's easy for him to make those claims when he's not in a position to do so and FFP will limit just how much he can spend.
 
The loopholes have only been exposed by the likes of City and PSG and it even took them years to figure it out. Usmanov isn't an oil rich state and he's not going to chuck billions at Arsenal, despite what you think and hope.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom