Audiophile Myths

[Eilua]

Hi guys,

Received a bit fat bonus from work a couple of months ago and it's been burning a hole in my pocket, so I've been looking into getting myself a decent sound setup for my PC.

Only ever used on board sound (supremeFX at the moment) and cheap headphones (Creative Fatality HS800's) so obviously wanted to thoroughly research before dropping ~£300-£400 on a soundcard & headphone setup.

So many confusing questions for an audio newbie such as myself: Inbuilt soundcard or external dac & amp? Headset or headphones & Mic? Closed or Open design? Music, Gaming, Surround or all round focus? What product is right for my uses?

I have been getting much closer to deciding what to sink my money into (thinking Asus Essence STX II & Either a PC360's or similar tiered headphones, 598's etc).

I was browsing youtube however, and came across this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1rXcJuEsy0

It's kinda thrown a spanner in the works. I don't really know what to think anymore.

What do all the OcUK resident audiophiles think about this? Do they have a point with what they're talking about (I'm thinking soundcards not being worth it over onboard)? Or are they just talking a load of nonsense?

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Hi guys,

Received a bit fat bonus from work a couple of months ago and it's been burning a hole in my pocket, so I've been looking into getting myself a decent sound setup for my PC.

Only ever used on board sound (supremeFX at the moment) and cheap headphones (Creative Fatality HS800's) so obviously wanted to thoroughly research before dropping ~£300-£400 on a soundcard & headphone setup.

So many confusing questions for an audio newbie such as myself: Inbuilt soundcard or external dac & amp? Headset or headphones & Mic? Closed or Open design? Music, Gaming, Surround or all round focus? What product is right for my uses?

I have been getting much closer to deciding what to sink my money into (thinking Asus Essence STX II & Either a PC360's or similar tiered headphones, 598's etc).

I was browsing youtube however, and came across this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1rXcJuEsy0

It's kinda thrown a spanner in the works. I don't really know what to think anymore.

What do all the OcUK resident audiophiles think about this? Do they have a point with what they're talking about (I'm thinking soundcards not being worth it over onboard)? Or are they just talking a load of nonsense?

Lot of crap onboard has a lot of interference.

In fact any device which is a jack of all trades is usually always inferior compared to a dedicated device.

So you want something for music and gaming? £300-£400.

I would get a half decent sound card from Asus (I use a £15 Xonar DG which is brilliant for the money) and then Phillips Fidelio X1's and a Antlion mod mic.

I wouldn't spend any more on a sound card unless you want surround sound. I would rather buy a DAC/AMP like the O2 from Epiphany Acoustics.

Do you only use a PC for gaming? Anything else?

What devices do you plan on using the headphones with? Set up your trust and then send me a trust message, I have something which may interest you.

 

[rids57]

I don't even have to watch the video, I know what it is and it's a complete crock, it is pretty much a marketing video for Mayflower Audio. The part which really had me in stitches was where they say that a 10ohm output impedance from the soundcard eats up 1/3 of the music, mostly bass frequencies - this is complete and utter nonsense. What's scary is that the guy saying this is one of the manufacturers of the O2 and O2D amp and dac/amp in the USA - just as well he didn't design it! About the only bit of sense they make is by warning about not using the case front headphone port.
I have an Asus Xonar Essence STX (v1) and also an external Aune T1 DAC/amp and the STX is most definitely not humiliated. The external is better but the differences are subtle not "night and day" as they make out in that video.
The thing is though that the STX is not just about sound quality, it's so much more convenient and just does more (Dolby Headphone for starters). I still use mine exclusively for feeding my speakers, gaming and movies and use the external DAC/amp for listening to music through my headphones (where it really shines). I also get no audible noise while using the STX, so contrary to the video, I guess the shielding must be doing something. My setup switches automatically just by inserting/removing my headphones from the DAC so it's really no effort.

 

[TALON1973]

As Psycho has asked.... what do you use / want to use your new set-up for ? I don't buy into surround headphones myself , but I listen to a lot of music with headphones and have the equipment to match . the 598 are pretty good , and maybe should have got them when they were on offer yesterday for £129. With your money make sure the headphones aren't to drive. maybe even look at a dac / head amp combo setup.

If your looking to maybe use the equipment away from a pc then id avoid the pc card route. What are you looking for OP ?

 

[PapaLazaru]

I've had numerous soundcards over the years and used onboard before that.

Simple fact is that even a cheap soundcard, like an ASUS Xonar DG is far superior to any onboard I have used, even the ones that come with top end ASUS motherboards.

I am now using a Xonar DG for my speakers (Corsair SP2500) and an external DAC with built in headphone amp, an Arcam rPAC, for my headphones.

Remember that a soundcard is just an internal DAC.

Now I will be honest as I have only had the external DAC for a week and the difference between it and my soundcard is subtle, but it is superior in all ways. I've got it for another week until I can take it back for a refund but the more I use it the more I want to keep it.

Soundcards do come with extra benefits as stated above, like Dolby headphone and an equalizer, but for music I have not missed it at all using the DAC. It is just pure audio as it is meant to be listened to.

If I was you, I would just get a DAC and a decent set of headphones and a clip-on mic of a modmic as stated above. You can spend fat too much time fiddling around with settings and never be sure you have it perfect. With an external DAC you can just get on and enjoy the superior quality audio.

If you really want surround sound through stereo headphones for gaming, you can just try a seperate driver, like Razer Surround, but I have noticed no real benefit and have uninstalled it.

 

[Eilua]

Lot of crap onboard has a lot of interference.

In fact any device which is a jack of all trades is usually always inferior compared to a dedicated device.

So you want something for music and gaming? £300-£400.

I would get a half decent sound card from Asus (I use a £15 Xonar DG which is brilliant for the money) and then Phillips Fidelio X1's and a Antlion mod mic.

I wouldn't spend any more on a sound card unless you want surround sound. I would rather buy a DAC/AMP like the O2 from Epiphany Acoustics.

Do you only use a PC for gaming? Anything else?

What devices do you plan on using the headphones with? Set up your trust and then send me a trust message, I have something which may interest you.

Yeah, the X1's have been on my radar -they seem to be massively popular - definitely high on my list of potential purchases.

Certainly considered the DG / DGX. Once again, they seem to get rave reviews for their price to performance level. I suppose I'm not sure whether I would get buyers remorse though and wish I'd got something a bit more high end. Obviously at the other end of the spectrum though, I have no idea whether the extra £100 or so that I would have to spend to get an essence would yield me a reasonable increase in performance relative to price. It can be really difficult to judge these things when you've essentially got no way of testing / seeing them in action prior to purchasing!

I'll be honest I'm not sure whether I'm bothered about surround sound or not. I've been reading quite a bit about Dolby Headphone, and apparently paired with something like the PC360's, it can generate good surround sound and ultimately positional accuracy.

Really my foray into the audiophile world is more of an experiment than anything else (an expensive one! ). Because sound quality has always been a passing thought when buying upgrades in the past, I don't really know what I'm missing, or indeed what my priorities are in terms of sound! This is going to be my way of finding out whether high quality sound is something I'm willing to invest a fair amount of money for (I imagine it will be).

I built my current rig with gaming in mind, so immersive sound is something that I'm aiming for - not sure if that means lots of bass, or simply an accurate reproduction of game sound.

While I do play some FPS, I'm no pro gamer. Positional accuracy, hearing footsteps etc, would certainly be nice to have, but not at the cost of immersion, for me.

I also play music almost exclusively on my desktop (wide range of styles, from metal, dubstep, chillstep, bit of trance, some classical - pretty much the entire gamut), so being able to improve this is a pretty high on my list of priorities too.

I'm probably going to use my headphones almost exclusively with my PC.

Also, I think I've set up my trust (signed in, etc). How do I send you a message through it? I clicked on the trust button under your post but it doesn't seem to do anything.

 

[Eilua]

I don't even have to watch the video, I know what it is and it's a complete crock, it is pretty much a marketing video for Mayflower Audio. The part which really had me in stitches was where they say that a 10ohm output impedance from the soundcard eats up 1/3 of the music, mostly bass frequencies - this is complete and utter nonsense. What's scary is that the guy saying this is one of the manufacturers of the O2 and O2D amp and dac/amp in the USA - just as well he didn't design it! About the only bit of sense they make is by warning about not using the case front headphone port.
I have an Asus Xonar Essence STX (v1) and also an external Aune T1 DAC/amp and the STX is most definitely not humiliated. The external is better but the differences are subtle not "night and day" as they make out in that video.
The thing is though that the STX is not just about sound quality, it's so much more convenient and just does more (Dolby Headphone for starters). I still use mine exclusively for feeding my speakers, gaming and movies and use the external DAC/amp for listening to music through my headphones (where it really shines). I also get no audible noise while using the STX, so contrary to the video, I guess the shielding must be doing something. My setup switches automatically just by inserting/removing my headphones from the DAC so it's really no effort.

Yeah, I thought some of it might have been nonsense, but had to ask considering I know next to nothing about the reproduction of sound!

I already don't bother using front panel connectors for sound, so I've got that covered!

 

[Eilua]

maybe should have got them when they were on offer yesterday for £129.

Oh dear, didn't even notice this? /sadface!

 

[Eilua]

I've had numerous soundcards over the years and used onboard before that.

Simple fact is that even a cheap soundcard, like an ASUS Xonar DG is far superior to any onboard I have used, even the ones that come with top end ASUS motherboards.

I am now using a Xonar DG for my speakers (Corsair SP2500) and an external DAC with built in headphone amp, an Arcam rPAC, for my headphones.

Remember that a soundcard is just an internal DAC.

Now I will be honest as I have only had the external DAC for a week and the difference between it and my soundcard is subtle, but it is superior in all ways. I've got it for another week until I can take it back for a refund but the more I use it the more I want to keep it.

Soundcards do come with extra benefits as stated above, like Dolby headphone and an equalizer, but for music I have not missed it at all using the DAC. It is just pure audio as it is meant to be listened to.

If I was you, I would just get a DAC and a decent set of headphones and a clip-on mic of a modmic as stated above. You can spend fat too much time fiddling around with settings and never be sure you have it perfect. With an external DAC you can just get on and enjoy the superior quality audio.

If you really want surround sound through stereo headphones for gaming, you can just try a seperate driver, like Razer Surround, but I have noticed no real benefit and have uninstalled it.

Hmm, interesting. I'll take a look into this, thanks.

 

[melmac]

Hi guys,

Received a bit fat bonus from work a couple of months ago and it's been burning a hole in my pocket, so I've been looking into getting myself a decent sound setup for my PC.

Only ever used on board sound (supremeFX at the moment) and cheap headphones (Creative Fatality HS800's) so obviously wanted to thoroughly research before dropping ~£300-£400 on a soundcard & headphone setup.

So many confusing questions for an audio newbie such as myself: Inbuilt soundcard or external dac & amp? Headset or headphones & Mic? Closed or Open design? Music, Gaming, Surround or all round focus? What product is right for my uses?

I have been getting much closer to deciding what to sink my money into (thinking Asus Essence STX II & Either a PC360's or similar tiered headphones, 598's etc).

I was browsing youtube however, and came across this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1rXcJuEsy0

It's kinda thrown a spanner in the works. I don't really know what to think anymore.

What do all the OcUK resident audiophiles think about this? Do they have a point with what they're talking about (I'm thinking soundcards not being worth it over onboard)? Or are they just talking a load of nonsense?

A lot of that is rubbish, blah, blah talk and you are right it's very confusing.

I will try to make it simper, Answer these questions, then We will work from there!!

Do you use your computer for mainly music or mainly gaming/movies?

If Music, do you listen to crappy low bit rate MP3s downloaded from anywhere? Or Do you listen to CDs and Flacs and pretty good quality MP3s?

Are you in a room with other people, I mean will the noise coming from your headphones annoy anyone?

Well, that's a start, if you can answer those get back to me and we can work out what you need.

 

[Eilua]

Also, bit of a fundamental question, but based on my uses, would you all recommend open or closed acoustics?

Almost all of the high end audiophile grade headphones seem to be open, but having used closed headphones for the last 6 years or so, might I not find it difficult to adjust to the new style?

Also, am I right in guessing that perhaps a closed design would give more bass? Or am I talking rubbish?

 

[Eilua]

A lot of that is rubbish, blah, blah talk and you are right it's very confusing.

I will try to make it simper, Answer these questions, then We will work from there!!

Do you use your computer for mainly music or mainly gaming/movies?

If Music, do you listen to crappy low bit rate MP3s downloaded from anywhere? Or Do you listen to CDs and Flacs and pretty good quality MP3s?

Are you in a room with other people, I mean will the noise coming from your headphones annoy anyone?

Well, that's a start, if you can answer those get back to me and we can work out what you need.

For a novice all the (sometimes conflicting) information out there about audio can be pretty confusing, yeah!

1) I use my computer maybe 55:45 gaming / music. Don't watch movies on my PC at all. I suppose I'm looking for a fairly all round sound setup?

2) At the moment I don't have any FLAC, but the rest of my library are all 320k MP3's. I was going to try and hunt down FLAC versions of all my music but another video by those tech syndicate guys suggests that there is minimal improvement between FLAC and 320k MP3, but 50%+ increase in filesize - is there any truth to that?

3) My computer is in my office so there normally isn't anyone here with me. Depending on how leaky sound can be with open headphones though, could mean that the sound could reach the bedroom next door. Hmph.

 

[rids57]

1) A lot depends on how highly you value Dolby Headphone, which will give you surround sound in games that don't have specialised headphone drivers built in, like Skyrim. If surround is important, then either go for the STX (1 or 2) or a DGX + external headphone amp. You could even go for a DGX + an external DAC + External amp as long as the DAC has optical input. In the last solution you use the DGX to feed positional audio to the DAC via optical cable. If surround is not important then I would say get an external DAC/Amp and be done with it.

2) FLAC are better than 320k MP3 but the differences are subtle and in a lot of cases people can't tell the difference. Where FLAC is better is that if you wish to make further copies, say burn it to disk, then you are always going to be better off using a lossless master.

3) If you shut the door then the sound won't be loud enough to disturb anyone in the next room. Both of my main pairs are open backed and I can hear them when I walk into the next room, though it's relatively quiet.

 

[melmac]

For a novice all the (sometimes conflicting) information out there about audio can be pretty confusing, yeah!

1) I use my computer maybe 55:45 gaming / music. Don't watch movies on my PC at all. I suppose I'm looking for a fairly all round sound setup?

2) At the moment I don't have any FLAC, but the rest of my library are all 320k MP3's. I was going to try and hunt down FLAC versions of all my music but another video by those tech syndicate guys suggests that there is minimal improvement between FLAC and 320k MP3, but 50%+ increase in filesize - is there any truth to that?

3) My computer is in my office so there normally isn't anyone here with me. Depending on how leaky sound can be with open headphones though, could mean that the sound could reach the bedroom next door. Hmph.

Well, based on your answers, I am going to suggest you get the creative Z. I don't think you are going to get any better sound card for immersion in games, which seems to be your number 1 priority.

Headphones, well here are a few suggestions.

CALs available here at OcUK.
Beyerdynamic DT 990 pro
The X1's mentioned earlier in this thread are really good.
As are the 598's and the PC360's are another good option.

From reading all your posts in this thread, gaming is your main use. I think you shouldn't spend huge money on your first foray into higher quality audio. Get the Creative Z and the creative aurvana live. You will be blown away by the difference between that and your current setup.

 

[rids57]

word of warning, if he gets the DT990 pro (250ohm) then the Soundblaster Z isn't quite strong enough to power it - I found a huge difference when I moved to the STX.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

For his budget and his usage Fidelio X1's and a asus xonar DG. You should be able to get both for under £200. Fidelios are the ultimate all rounder. DT770's would be my second choice then HD558/598's.

If you really want a better source you will need to spend like £150+ on a DAC/AMP which is 10 times the cost of that asus sound card yet improvement will be minimal for you IMO.

The most important part for you will be the headphones IMO rather than DAC/AMP's etc.

 

[spoffle]

I don't even have to watch the video, I know what it is and it's a complete crock, it is pretty much a marketing video for Mayflower Audio. The part which really had me in stitches was where they say that a 10ohm output impedance from the soundcard eats up 1/3 of the music, mostly bass frequencies - this is complete and utter nonsense. What's scary is that the guy saying this is one of the manufacturers of the O2 and O2D amp and dac/amp in the USA - just as well he didn't design it! About the only bit of sense they make is by warning about not using the case front headphone port.
I have an Asus Xonar Essence STX (v1) and also an external Aune T1 DAC/amp and the STX is most definitely not humiliated. The external is better but the differences are subtle not "night and day" as they make out in that video.
The thing is though that the STX is not just about sound quality, it's so much more convenient and just does more (Dolby Headphone for starters). I still use mine exclusively for feeding my speakers, gaming and movies and use the external DAC/amp for listening to music through my headphones (where it really shines). I also get no audible noise while using the STX, so contrary to the video, I guess the shielding must be doing something. My setup switches automatically just by inserting/removing my headphones from the DAC so it's really no effort.

It's not good enough to state something is "complete crock" and then it is so. You haven't even presented an argument for why it's a complete crock.

Why don't you qualify your statements, and dissect what the issues are, and why they're wrong. "I" isn't good enough in this situation, as that's the exact argument audiophiles use to "prove" their extraordinary claims that they make about things like cables, which are in direct contradiction to physics.

Yeah, I thought some of it might have been nonsense, but had to ask considering I know next to nothing about the reproduction of sound!

I already don't bother using front panel connectors for sound, so I've got that covered!

Since you know next to nothing about audio, as you admit, how do you know who to listen to, and who is actually correct?

Within audio, there is a huge amount of rubbish, people make statements and believe that their say so is good enough.

Critical thinking is discouraged to some degree, and the general consensus is "I think there's a difference, therefore there definitely is", and that's that. Which is why some audiohpile forums have sections where suggestions of double blind testing is discouraged, and I'm sure there are some forums where there are blanket rules, or at least disdain for double blind testing (because no audiophile has managed to pass one, just ask James Randi).

The audio industry is made up of many scams http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/jref-news/105-comments-on-cable-challenge.html.

 

[rids57]

It's not good enough to state something is "complete crock" and then it is so. You haven't even presented an argument for why it's a complete crock.

Why don't you qualify your statements, and dissect what the issues are, and why they're wrong. "I" isn't good enough in this situation, as that's the exact argument audiophiles use to "prove" their extraordinary claims that they make about things like cables, which are in direct contradiction to physics.

You mean like "a 10ohm output impedance means you'll lose 1/3 of the music"?

No it doesn't, it just affects the damping factor, which can affect the control of the voice coils at low frequencies. It's not the only factor, the headphones themselves "may" have a resonant frequency at which their impedance can change quite dramatically.

or "the standard headphone impedance is 32 ohms"?

There is no standard headphone impedance.

or "in blind tests nobody could tell the difference between on board audio and a sound card"?

This may in fact be true if those taking part were deaf. As it stands though, even a fairly lowly sound card can more than hold it's own against motherboard sound. The most recent high end motherboards have had improved sound sections included but they are still only cut down subsets of existing sound cards.

Logan has almost zero technical understanding, he's a presenter, always has been and the guy from Mayflower is just pushing his product at every opportunity. What I find ironic is that one of the best articles I've read about input/output impedances and headphone damping factor was written by the person who designed the Objective O2, the amp that Mayflower now builds.

 

[rids57]

Audiophiles try, and pass blind testing all the time, just not with cables. The people who make and sell audio cables are the same people who would have sold snake oil back in the wild west. Most people have more common sense though and once you've got a cable that uses decent materials and is built to a good standard there is no point in buying a more expensive one because it won't be better.

 

[hughythomas]

The audio industry is made up of many scams http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/jref-news/105-comments-on-cable-challenge.html.

This video is a scam.

I had to stop watching half way - I actually found it insulting.