Autonomous Vehicles

Permabanned
Joined
17 Aug 2016
Posts
1,517
According to the Times, "
Fully driverless cars could take to Britain’s roads this year under plans to scrap the requirement for a safety driver to be in control at all times.

The Department for Transport said yesterday that new guidelines would be introduced in the summer allowing autonomous vehicles to be tested without a human for the first time in the UK. It will mark a significant milestone in the development of the technology and potentially put Britain ahead of most other countries."
 
Permabanned
Joined
17 Aug 2016
Posts
1,517
When the accidents start piling in, watch how quickly the public turns it's back.

Really? You mean like how the public has turned its back on the 1.2 million road traffic deaths that occur every year globally including the thousands in the US and the UK? Where human error accounts for nearly 95% of these fatalities. The public has grown to accept accidents it seems like there is no alternative, when in fact there soon will be an alternative, namely AVs that don't drink and drive, don't have road rage, don't fall asleep at the wheel and don't take drugs that induce slow reaction times.

I expect AVs to be introduced in controlled, geo-fenced areas as ride hailing taxi services. In a taxi fleet you would not be able to grab the wheel either. If it fails it will stop and another taxi will come to take its place. Picture the video I posted earlier of Waymo's geo-fenced ride hailing service already operating in Phoenix, Arizona where no one can sit in what is the drivers seat because the driver is the software. I expect their service to go commercial in the very near future and you can judge for yourself whether accidents "pile up" and who is at fault if they do.

Further, you can draw the analogy with flying. All modern jet planes have some advanced degree of flybywire. Millions of people fly every day because planes do not have catastrophic failure of the very hardened and redundant flight computer or simultaneous catastrophic failure of all engines. Yet planes do crash (despite having double and triple redundancy), mostly due to human error and the public has not turned its back on jet planes.

Finally, I mentioned the likelihood that Waymo will be spun out of Alphabet/Google due mainly to liability/risk concerns. Removing vehicle controls will make it very clear that any liability from damage caused by the AVs actions will attach to the manufacturer/fleet operator and not the passenger.

This alone will make for ride hailing service providers not pushing the expansion envelope beyond what is safe and secure.
 
Associate
Joined
17 Feb 2017
Posts
23
Location
UK
Human accident rate is still way lower than AV's

60 accidents in 300,000 miles? That's terrible...

And this is largely in "safe zones" where the environment is well understood.
 
Permabanned
Joined
17 Aug 2016
Posts
1,517
I beg your pardon.. I misread a previous post where a human operator had to step in to halt an error.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/31/16956902/california-dmv-self-driving-car-disengagement-2017

GM's AV accident rate is currently standing at one crash for every 5,985 miles of testing.

Glad you clarified your initial comment to my post. With so many stats I can see how easy it is to confuse disengagements from crashes. But Waymo notes that disengagements happen for a variety of reasons, some in order to test new scenarios. Hence just reading disengagements can magnify the seeming need for human intervention rather than its elective nature.
 
Permabanned
Joined
17 Aug 2016
Posts
1,517
Latest term describing passengers in AV's: carcolepsy.

Carcolepsy is the unexpected thing that happens inside Waymo's self driving minivans.

Specifically, carcolepsy is "One minute you're anxiously awaiting your chance to become one of the first humans on Earth to ride inside a driverless car. The next minute, you're yawning (literally) and falling asleep."

And significantly, before any commercial launch and heavy ad campaigns, the number of Americans who are afraid to ride in a self driving vehicle has fallen from 78% to 63% in one year. A study shows that male drivers and millenials are the most trusting at 50%.

http://www.dailyherald.com/business...t-happens-inside-waymos-self-driving-minivans
 
Permabanned
Joined
17 Aug 2016
Posts
1,517
So is the expected model that people won't own their own AV but there'll be a massive network of AV taxis constantly ferrying people around and being shared?

If you look at the public statements of executives at AV leaders like Waymo, GM Cruise, Ford Mobility, etc, they all plan a commercial ride hailing service first and well before the concept of AV ownership by individuals is contemplated. For now, an AV is expected to be a very costly vehicle---I have read estimates that a single Waymo AV which in essence is a modified Fiat Chrysler Pacifica SUV with LIDAR, sensors, radar and cameras and software and hardware costs $ 250,000 per vehicle to deliver.

As my previous link to efforts in the US Congress provides, even if proposed legislation passes exempting Level 4/5 AVs passes, it will be with severe AV number limitations that make it difficult to achieve true economies of scale and hence huge cost reductions. That is why Waymo decided to scrap the idea of producing its own vehicle back in 2015---remember the Firefly? Instead, the vehicle that Fiat Chrysler produces for them is a fully compliant, road worthy vehicle that has been modified by Waymo engineers and hence why it still has a steering wheel and brakes despite it never being used by the "driver". For example, the Fiat Chrysler Pacifica SUV driven by Waymo software and hardware has room for 7 passengers but because the front seat must remain empty to prevent any passenger from driving the vehicle, it is limited to 5 passengers.

Next think Return on Investment. The average driver today in a manually controlled vehicle uses the vehicle perhaps 4 or 5% of the time and the vehicle remains idle for 95-96% of the time (parked in a driveway, on the street or in a car park). An EV costing $ 250,000 to deliver would simply be uneconomic for the average human driver to own. Waymo's commercially used vehicle will probably see 60% usage with the remainder of its life spent being recharged or repaired. With these economics it should be possible for Waymo to turn its commercial intentions into a very profitable business. How so?

I believe that Waymo can build a fleet of commercially owned vehicles into hundreds of thousands and potentially millions of vehicles that operate first in the US and eventually globally by a combination of owned and operated vehicles and through partnerships with today's ride hailing services like Uber and Lyft. Lyft (recently valued at $ 11 billion in the private market) already has such a partnership with Waymo and others. Uber has stated publicly that they would like to enter into such a partnership with Waymo. Waymo already has other partnerships with Avis (car rentals) and Autonation (car parts supplier) to include servicing and repairing their fleets. Waymo also has entered a partnership with an insurance company to provide passenger insurance for each ride.

The economics: if Waymo can grow its business to represent 1% of global miles driven by 2030 (based on a fleet of 3 million cars driving 65,000 miles each per year) and that Waymo can generate an average of $ 1.25 in revenue per mile driven, that equates to a valuation of $ 75 billion today using discounted cash flow to provide EV (economic value). So a large, publicly traded AV company like Waymo (which I believe will be spun out of Alphabet) could be a huge player in the commercial AV ride hailing business. It could also be a huge purchaser of vehicles from traditional auto manufacturers in its own right.

That is the economic model I see developing first. Such a model could also be applied to trucks and to other types of vehicles such as delivery vans (with robotic assistance at the curb).
 
Permabanned
Joined
17 Aug 2016
Posts
1,517
Soldato
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
10,632
Location
Notts
Presume you work in the field sesevans with your post volume in the thread? Don't you feel like you're talking to yourself a bit? Motors forum isn't known for being progressive :p
 
Permabanned
Joined
17 Aug 2016
Posts
1,517
Presume you work in the field sesevans with your post volume in the thread? Don't you feel like you're talking to yourself a bit? Motors forum isn't known for being progressive :p

Your presumption is wrong. I am merely an interested observer and a contributor to the thread of what I see as the future of transportation and "Motors". Sometimes it does feel a little lonely but I did not start the thread. I see it as a useful forum for those that are prepared to look ahead a few years at what "Motors" will be about. Why?

In a few years I see AVs as dominating Motor threads. Threads will likely discuss ride sharing deals----this week Lyft announced a monthly subscription price of $ 199 for unlimited rides of $ 15 or less. Getting ready for a driverless future when the cost of a human driver disappears? Sure.

Just look at who is competing in this field....tech companies and OEMs like GM, Ford, Daimler, BMW and Tesla. The OEMs see the future where car ownership will become much less prevalent than it is today. And if you do not own a car but end up using more ride hailing services you are less likely to contribute to Motor threads that discuss car ownership, cleaning products, muscle cars, etc.

This summer the UK will permit extensive AV testing without requiring a driver in the vehicle. I suggest that our thread will become increasingly popular as more and more people in the UK see these AVs on the road or begin to be passengers in them.

Stay tuned.
 
Soldato
Joined
22 Nov 2006
Posts
23,390
They definitely don't like all these robots in San Francisco, where people started tipping those delivery robots over for lols. So now they need to keep sending people out to unstuck them all the time.

Similar things will start happening with AVs, superglue over sensors, blocking them in with cones, etc. How annoying is it going to be when you "summon" your car and it never arrives because someone has dropped a couple of cones at both ends of it. It will be the new hilarious, drunk Friday evening activity.
 
Last edited:
Permabanned
Joined
17 Aug 2016
Posts
1,517
They definitely don't like all these robots in San Francisco, where people started tipping those delivery robots over for lols. So now they need to keep sending people out to unstuck them all the time.

Similar things will start happening with AVs, superglue over sensors, blocking them in with cones, etc. How annoying is it going to be when you "summon" your car and it never arrives because someone has dropped a couple of cones at both ends of it. It will be the new hilarious, drunk Friday evening activity.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/10/san-francisco-delivery-robots-laws

Seems to me that a compromise will be struck as it always has been with cities and towns. Here in the UK there is constant tension between cars and bikers and walkers so throwing in a further competitive element means weighing up the pros and cons and making a solution work. And of course there is a political layer to add in here....San Francisco is considered very politically left/liberal and attempting to create change in such an environment is going to be met with resistance by someone. Note nearby towns and cities are more likely to embrace robotic assistance for deliveries.

Compare the trials and tribulations of San Francisco dealing with robot deliveries and the next door State Arizona which is on the verge of passing legislation permitting them.

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2018/02/09/rise-of-the-robots-arizona-bill-would-allow.html

You also might be amused to read about the relative successes with delivery robots at a number of hotels, esp at the recent CES convention in Las Vegas, Nevada.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/view-from...s-are-fulltime-employees-at-a-las-vegas-hotel

And of course implied in your comments is your attitude towards robotic cars (AVs). In recent US surveys, there has been an increase in the past year of people prepared to ride in self driving vehicles such as the robotaxi service likely to be introduced soon by Waymo in Phoenix, Arizona.
 
Permabanned
Joined
17 Aug 2016
Posts
1,517
Permabanned
Joined
17 Aug 2016
Posts
1,517
Sadly, a fatal accident has occured in Tempe, Arizona involving a female bicyclist and and Uber self driving vehicle that was in autonomous mode when the accident occurred. Uber has stated that it is suspending its AV programme testing in San Francisco, Arizona and Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania while the investigation takes place. Just recently Uber has been holding discussions with Toyota in an attempt to sell its technology to Toyota for use in their AVs.

I am deeply upset for the victim. Perfecting this technology is not easy as this accident has shown.

https://www.abc15.com/news/arizona-...-driving-uber-car-involved-in-crash-overnight
 
Caporegime
Joined
25 Jul 2005
Posts
28,851
Location
Canada
Why is it so unfortunately expected that it’s Uber. They seem to be flying by the seat of their pants in comparison to many other companies unfortunately.
 
Caporegime
Joined
23 Dec 2011
Posts
32,924
Location
Northern England
I read it was a pedestrian and she'd basically walked out in front of it.

Source: NBC news.

JUST IN: Police: Female pedestrian has died after being hit by an Uber self-driving vehicle, which was rolling in autonomous mode with a driver behind the wheel, while she was walking outside of crosswalk while crossing road in Tempe, Arizona.
 
Back
Top Bottom