Autonomous Vehicles

Anyone read any real significance into this departure?
he had only been there a couple of years, core expertise was hardware not AI , so i don't think its catacylsmic

btw- It seems surprising no other cities have concerns about Uber - like London - do wonder if they might implode.

Plus a driverless car will keep a perfect distance constantly
not sure whether they will convoy at minimum space, for reduced air resistance, or, if they are networked in, just drive at 50 which is the average you can achieve on my typical evening route, so no point in ever reaching mach 1/70 .... not sure wherewhen the intercommunication between AV cars and the 'central' computer becomes part of the picture.
 
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I think car ownership is here to stay. I won't go into the full details but it would not be econimically feasible (for companies) for a majority of the population to rely ride sharing services because of how demand for vehicles work in day to day life.

Exactly this, we know most cars spend the majority of their lives parked but we also know most people need to use them at the same time, hence rush hour and bank holiday traffic.

As you know simple supply and demand economics will take over and those people travelling to get to work for normal office hours (i.e. 9 and 5) will in be subject to demand pricing. Could you imagine using Uber to get to work that is constantly in 'surge pricing' mode? No thanks...
 
TBH I can't imagine having AV cars is going to be all that practical. All these AVs each carrying 1 person to work? nope. It will only really work with..I dunno..a bus.

But then because there's a bunch of people on-board, you need someone else on it to make sure everyone is behaving themselves and not getting rapey or anything. We'll call him a "bus conductor".
 
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.........

not sure whether they will convoy at minimum space, for reduced air resistance, or, if they are networked in, just drive at 50 which is the average you can achieve on my typical evening route, so no point in ever reaching mach 1/70 .... not sure wherewhen the intercommunication between AV cars and the 'central' computer becomes part of the picture.

Here's something you may not have considered yet about "intercommunication".

AVs will produce unbelievably large amounts of data and the need for a network that is cyber-secure will be of critical importance (Nasher and others on this site have often talked about how easy it might be to hack an AV).

More specifically, SpaceX and Tesla are natural partners, aside from common ownership. Tesla and its data could provide SpaceX with a natural client. SpaceX is scheduled to enter the broadband market in 2019.

It is said that AVs can produce up to 40 Terabytes of data per hour. How will a company like Tesla or Waymo or GM manage such a large quantity of data, considering the size of fleets in a few years time. The value of the link between SpaceX and Tesla seems clear to me.

Not only do AVs produce Terabytes of data, it is useful to also consider data consumption inside AVs, and depending on the rate of replacement of today's fleet of vehicles with AVs, we are also talking huge quantities of data consumed by occupants of an increasingly automated mobile environment inside the vehicle......trillions of hours of human time.

AVs will need to communicate with the cloud for many functions including OTA software updates, mapping, route planning, opportunities for digital content delivery, paid search, and other things passengers might want to do inside an AV. All of these mean that a robust and reliable network will be needed in both urban environments like London as well as suburban/thinly populated environments like Cornwall. How might this work?

The strength of this network will be a key asset for a Tesla/SpaceX combination. This broadband network should be capable of providing a key level of communication for highly secure AV/IOT technology.

Keep an eye on how Tesla, Waymo and others address this issue of "intercommunication".
 
P
Exactly this, we know most cars spend the majority of their lives parked but we also know most people need to use them at the same time, hence rush hour and bank holiday traffic.

As you know simple supply and demand economics will take over and those people travelling to get to work for normal office hours (i.e. 9 and 5) will in be subject to demand pricing. Could you imagine using Uber to get to work that is constantly in 'surge pricing' mode? No thanks...

Perhaps. The statistics I have provided seem to indicate a drop in car ownership, particularly among millenials and a pick up in those prepared to "cut the chord" of vehicle ownership in favour of Uber/Lyft/Zipcar, etc. If surge pricing during rush hour were a significant problem for such chord cutters vs the cost of private vehicle ownership, the trends might appear differently. While a still small phenomenon, it bears watching and seeing how ride hailing/vehicle rental companies and soon AV ride hailing address such issues and the competitive dynamics forcing low pricing might play out.

Let's keep watching this space for more data.
 
TBH I can't imagine having AV cars is going to be all that practical. All these AVs each carrying 1 person to work? nope. It will only really work with..I dunno..a bus.

But then because there's a bunch of people on-board, you need someone else on it to make sure everyone is behaving themselves and not getting rapey or anything. We'll call him a "bus conductor".

Companies like Ford and Fiat Chrysler and JLR are becoming more narrowly focused on their offerings.....cutting out sedans in a number of markets for example as they anticipate what will be sellers in the next few years. I saw that Ford is doubling down on SUVs, crossovers and mini vans to address mobility of the future.

Interior design will be key in these vehicles (and plenty of cameras!) to avoid the issues you discuss. :p:p

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...1-5-billion-more-cuts-pulls-ahead-margin-goal
 
Here's something you may not have considered yet about "intercommunication".

....
Keep an eye on how Tesla, Waymo and others address this issue of "intercommunication".

I did not explain clearly - I meant one car saying to another I will arrive at this junction in 5 seconds - let me in, or, cars scheduling route to balance traffic, convoy orhchestration, ... finally removal of traffic light.
Earlier post I made discussed driver co-operation (gestures, eye contact, flash, horn) but Av's could also communicate unambiguously, electronically

edit: wonder how AV's are being testded for their interaction with one another, as opposed to just regular cars, what will be the accident statistics and how will insurance form be completed
 
I did not explain clearly - I meant one car saying to another I will arrive at this junction in 5 seconds - let me in, or, cars scheduling route to balance traffic, convoy orhchestration, ... finally removal of traffic light.
Earlier post I made discussed driver co-operation (gestures, eye contact, flash, horn) but Av's could also communicate unambiguously, electronically

edit: wonder how AV's are being testded for their interaction with one another, as opposed to just regular cars, what will be the accident statistics and how will insurance form be completed

This link to a recent ZDNet article might be of help in thinking through solutions. V2V protocol and 5G wireless appear to be important.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/the-x-factor-in-our-driverless-future-v2v-and-v2i/
 
Companies like Ford and Fiat Chrysler and JLR are becoming more narrowly focused on their offerings.....cutting out sedans in a number of markets for example as they anticipate what will be sellers in the next few years. I saw that Ford is doubling down on SUVs, crossovers and mini vans to address mobility of the future.

Interior design will be key in these vehicles (and plenty of cameras!) to avoid the issues you discuss. :p:p

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...1-5-billion-more-cuts-pulls-ahead-margin-goal

But most people still won't want to share a ride with random people, even in something the size of an MPV. So they'll have loads of large vehicles with one person in them.
 
But most people still won't want to share a ride with random people, even in something the size of an MPV. So they'll have loads of large vehicles with one person in them.

Perhaps. Time will tell if that is true and whether designs or compartments might alleviate that issue.

Meanwhile, companies like Waymo have a bigger priority than this one. Priority number one for them is safety. It is far more important now to put safety as its number one objective in order to convince the public that the AV is the safest way to travel, esp with Waymo's driver doing the driving. More road testing and soon commercial deployments will be critical.
 
P


Perhaps. The statistics I have provided seem to indicate a drop in car ownership, particularly among millenials and a pick up in those prepared to "cut the chord" of vehicle ownership in favour of Uber/Lyft/Zipcar, etc. If surge pricing during rush hour were a significant problem for such chord cutters vs the cost of private vehicle ownership, the trends might appear differently. While a still small phenomenon, it bears watching and seeing how ride hailing/vehicle rental companies and soon AV ride hailing address such issues and the competitive dynamics forcing low pricing might play out.

Let's keep watching this space for more data.
The "cut the chord" crew are a minority when you consider everyone who uses a vehicle to travel. The numbers simply do not work. I can only see two realistic scenarios.
You either have enough cars for people to commute to work with without delays and therefore have million of cars simply sitting in parking lots till the evening.
Or you don't have enough cars for the total number of people commuting and therefore you have some people who do not get a vehicle and are forced to wait till one is available (which depending on the net traffic flow for the area could easily be up to an hour). The unpredictability of not knowing whether you'll get a car, to be able to get to work on time would simply drive people away from such services.
 
P


Perhaps. The statistics I have provided seem to indicate a drop in car ownership, particularly among millenials and a pick up in those prepared to "cut the chord" of vehicle ownership in favour of Uber/Lyft/Zipcar, etc. If surge pricing during rush hour were a significant problem for such chord cutters vs the cost of private vehicle ownership, the trends might appear differently. While a still small phenomenon, it bears watching and seeing how ride hailing/vehicle rental companies and soon AV ride hailing address such issues and the competitive dynamics forcing low pricing might play out.

Let's keep watching this space for more data.

I don't see there being a measurable shift in car ownership, if anything there are a record number of vehicles on the road currently. It's far too early to say about millennial's seeing as true millennial's are 25 years old at the most. 50% of them would have been in full time education until they are 21/22 and are just starting in the world of work. They are also delaying things like families until much later and concentrating on building a career first. Younger people are much more likely to accept living in a crowded city centre, but that changes as priorities change.

There are also the practicalities of family life that make things like ride sharing a problem. Just silly things like when your kid decides they are going to throw up in the back of the car on the way somewhere. At the moment you just put up with a puke smell and deal with it when you get a chance. In the ride sharing world you will be paying for a valet and for all of the lost revenue. I doubt google is going to be particularly happy for you to load the thing to the brim of garden waste twice a year for a tip run? There's another £50 on a valet.

Don't get me wrong ride sharing AV's with have absolutely a place in the market but for a lot of people cars are much more than just transport and are very much an essential tool for modern life and is not something that should be underestimated. Especially if you live outside of London. They will chip away at car ownership but it will take a very long time before we reach the tipping point. Unlike EV's I see the us going past the tipping point for new sales in the next 5-7 years.
 
Yep, you can't live outside of town and NOT have a car really. Especially as many rural places never even see a bus go by. AVs aren't going to fill that gap.
 
I don't see there being a measurable shift in car ownership, if anything there are a record number of vehicles on the road currently.......

Don't get me wrong ride sharing AV's with have absolutely a place in the market but for a lot of people cars are much more than just transport and are very much an essential tool for modern life and is not something that should be underestimated.......

I fully appreciate that mine is a controversial position. Some might say I am a bit crazy to even suggest "chord cutting of cars" on the Motors site of Overclockers!! The heresy of it. And I do agree that resistance to change is strong but I truly believe change is coming.

Approximately 10 years ago when Google started developing their self driving vehicle, they were virtually alone in this. Their objective: solve a major global problem----1.2 million road traffic accidents globally every year of which more than 90% are the fault of the human driver. Wind the clock forward a few years later, say 2015, and Google concludes after extensive testing of their semi-autonomous vehicles, that their future AVs will be fully machine driven with no human driver intervention. Their conclusion was that this was the only viable way to achieve their goal and that safety was their number one objective in their AV. OEMs saw their logic and began to get extremely worried about their business model: selling vehicles requiring human drivers. Again, Google was largely on its own here but OEMs were beginning to recognise that a new world was emerging where they would either at least provide major technological improvements in their cars to "assist" the human driver (a typical reaction of an incumbent trying to slow down the change) or face major disruption by technology companies (ie, be road kill--no pun intended).

Wind the clock forward a few more years to 2018 and now a number of OEMs recognise that their current business model of selling vehicles to private owners on a semi-autonomous basis is flawed---eg, Ford, GM, JLR, Fiat Chrysler, etc and that only a partnership with tech companies can survive the change that is coming---the move to Level 4/5 AVs (yes EVs) that will be owned by large fleets (with substantial bargaining power over prices) providing inexpensive ride hailing services to the public that will be safer than any vehicle operating with human drivers. One could therefore argue that the car manufacturers themselves are contributing to their own disruption! Once resistant, they are now embracing the change. They saw what Apple and Google did in smartphones to incumbents--both operators and manufacturers.

Over time I see private vehicle ownership changing to a shared mobility model. Will it take time? Yes. Will it happen faster than some think? Yes, faster than the pure deniers think but slower than the early adopters think. The safety factor and the pure economics will help drive such adoption. City dwellers will likely be early adopters. Uber and Lyft are creating this rethink anyway, even with human driven ride sharing vehicles.

I prefer not to get into details (eg, your child barfing in the back seat or the urban v surban factors, etc) at this stage because I do not think these detract from the fundamental argument in favour of the ultimate machine/robot driven vehicle that is not individually owned.

I offer up this analogy. As recently as 10 years ago, TV was dominated by the main networks (in the US---CBS, NBC, etc) and by cable/pay TV companies (Comcast, Charter, etc). The idea of chord cutting was the exception....a rarity. Then churn and chord cutting became more prevalent. Now who is the dominant player on the TV screen? Netflix, with YouTube being a viable alternative too. And we are talking about consumers facing a relatively small up front cost with cable TV for example compared to the cost of a vehicle.

I appreciate there are many differences between chord cutting on TVs and chord cutting on cars but there are also similarities, which is why I draw the analogy.

Bob Dylan: I Feel a Change Comin' On
 
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A job listing for an Android TV Partner Marketing Manager gave rise to an interesting thought piece in the blog Android Headlines in which the author suggests that Google/Waymo might be thinking of integrating Android TV into Waymo self driving vehicles. If so Google is thinking beyond their current infotainment system, Android Auto (meant for human driven vehicles).

Thoughts?

https://www.androidheadlines.com/20...riving-cars-waymo-job-listing-surfaceses.html
 
Wind the clock forward a few more years to 2018 and now a number of OEMs recognise that their current business model of selling vehicles to private owners on a semi-autonomous basis is flawed---eg, Ford, GM, JLR, Fiat Chrysler, etc and that only a partnership with tech companies can survive the change that is coming---the move to Level 4/5 AVs (yes EVs) that will be owned by large fleets (with substantial bargaining power over prices) providing inexpensive ride hailing services to the public that will be safer than any vehicle operating with human drivers. One could therefore argue that the car manufacturers themselves are contributing to their own disruption! Once resistant, they are now embracing the change. They saw what Apple and Google did in smartphones to incumbents--both operators and manufacturers.

Over time I see private vehicle ownership changing to a shared mobility model. Will it take time? Yes. Will it happen faster than some think? Yes, faster than the pure deniers think but slower than the early adopters think. The safety factor and the pure economics will help drive such adoption. City dwellers will likely be early adopters. Uber and Lyft are creating this rethink anyway, even with human driven ride sharing vehicles.

I don't see why there isn't room for both tbh...uber already exists and doesn't replace the car for most people, taxis have been around for decades, public transport pre-dates the car even. There are use cases for ride hailing/pooled vehicles and there are use cases for privately owned vehicles. I don't see either dying out any time soon.
 
I offer up this analogy. As recently as 10 years ago, TV was dominated by the main networks (in the US---CBS, NBC, etc) and by cable/pay TV companies (Comcast, Charter, etc). The idea of chord cutting was the exception....a rarity. Then churn and chord cutting became more prevalent. Now who is the dominant player on the TV screen? Netflix, with YouTube being a viable alternative too. And we are talking about consumers facing a relatively small up front cost with cable TV for example compared to the cost of a vehicle.

I appreciate there are many differences between chord cutting on TVs and chord cutting on cars but there are also similarities, which is why I draw the analogy.

Bob Dylan: I Feel a Change Comin' On

I get your logic and I am not someone that is rejecting the change, I totally see AV's having an effect on cars are used but it will be slow, much slower than most enthusiasts think. It will first decimate the Taxi and PHV market before it has a tangible effect on private car ownership.

There will need to be such a huge mindset change to bridge the gap between what is essentially a taxi service and private car ownership. They would have to beat car ownership on both economics and freedom of use which is something that is not achievable any time soon. I accept that Alphabet has a lot of money, but they don't have anything close enough to make the shift you are making out and investors will want to see a return at some point.

I also don't see 'cord cutting' in the TV market at all either, if anything all 3 major operators in the UK (Sky, Virgin and BT) are evolving their model and are very much taking the content war to likes of Netflix and Amazon. They are also all still growing their subscriber base which isn't what you would expect to see with people cord cutting.

If anything people that cord cut are getting fed up with having to subscribe to 3 or 4 different services to get the content they want and at which point might as well go back to a traditional operator. Netflix, Hulu and Amazon if anything are more becoming an additional service rather than an alternative and its also not certain that your favourite content will be on the service the next day with deals being constantly re-negotiated and major content publishers launching their own service. There are growing calls from consumers for a few content aggregates that have all the content for one monthly bill. Does that sound familiar?

YouTube isn't really a viable alternative to mainstream media and is very much an 'alt' media platform. Sure you can sink hours into it but it couldn't doesn't replace Netflix let alone a cable subscription. The business model would have to change dramatically to replace mainstream media.
 
@dowie @bOrn2sk8

Thanks for a great discussion on AVs regarding their introduction, timing, use case and disruption potential (chord cutting).

I was drawn to a letter penned by Sergey Brin this week and his discussion of the greatest change in computing in his lifetime--a virtual computational explosion giving birth to significant change. I suggest that things that took years to develop and which created changes may take less time to happen. Specifically he discusses both the positive and negative side of artificial intelligence.

And one area where Google has used AI extensively is of course with self driving vehicles.

I suggest a read of the letter and links in context of our discussion about what might be possible and how quickly things can change. It is not a direct rebuttal of anything you have said (in fact I agree with a lot of your comments) but something to reframe the context of our discussion in a rapidly changing world. Hope you enjoy reading it and find it useful.

https://abc.xyz/investor/founders-letters/2017/index.html
 
Oh dear...:p

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ot-moved-passenger-seat-banned-18-months.html

On a more serious note, the irony of this is that, in fact, what he did really was no more dangerous than using autopilot while sitting in the drivers seat.

The theory that the Driver should always be in a position to "Take Over" if something goes wrong sounds reassuring enough, and clearly this driver would not have been in a position to do so, but in practice, nobody is going to be able to "Take Over" fast enough even if they were sitting there with their hands on the wheel and their feet on the pedals. the 2-3 seconds it would take for the driver to realise that something had gone wrong and to refocus his attention is long enough for it to be all over really.
 
Oh dear...:p

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ot-moved-passenger-seat-banned-18-months.html

On a more serious note, the irony of this is that, in fact, what he did really was no more dangerous than using autopilot while sitting in the drivers seat.

The theory that the Driver should always be in a position to "Take Over" if something goes wrong sounds reassuring enough, and clearly this driver would not have been in a position to do so, but in practice, nobody is going to be able to "Take Over" fast enough even if they were sitting there with their hands on the wheel and their feet on the pedals. the 2-3 seconds it would take for the driver to realise that something had gone wrong and to refocus his attention is long enough for it to be all over really.

You might look back at some of the posts in this thread where we have discussed at length the very point you are making about vehicles that "assist" a human driver. Tesla is of course an example of a company that markets "Autopilot" which implies, at the very least, that it is safe to let the car do the driving. You probably know that vehicles are ranked in terms of autonomy from a Level 1 rating to a Level 5 rating, with a Level 5 AV able to drive itself under any and all conditions without human intervention. On this scale, Tesla Autopilot is an example of a Level 2. Waymo's AV that drives itself in the Phoenix, Arizona suburb is a Level 4.

In 2014, Waymo let some of the Google employees operate their then version of an AV telling them that although the vehicle was capable of driving itself under many conditions, it was not a self driving vehicle. Hence the employees were asked to concentrate on the road and occupy the drivers seat where they would need to hold their hands close to the wheel to be able to assume control if needed. Cameras inside the vehicle filmed the drivers at all times. Google noticed that the drivers began to trust the vehicle more and more and began to take risks. One instance I recall was when an employee turned around to get something from the rear seat and kept his/her eyes turning backwards for up to 30 seconds. Others began texting on their phones. Reaction times to take back control varied from a few seconds to up to 30 seconds!

In 2014 Google concluded that they would jump straight to the development of a Level 4 AV and never again allow a human to control the vehicle. Waymo's Level 4 vehicle being tested in their Early Rider programme in Arizona has no human driver in the vehicle. They have applied for a license to operate similarly in California and it is being actively reviewed. Artificial intelligence plays a big role in helping their AV recognise objects and in validating performance.
 
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