Autonomous Vehicles

The Saudi's are transitioning away from fossil fuels and are one of the leaders by dropping billions on renewable energy in the last few years. They are working very hard to diversify their economy, we will be buying their oil long after they stop using it ;).
 
@sesevans ^ That's a great post and you obviously know an awful lot about corporate finance.

The bit I'm missing here, and this by contrast is probably showing my relative lack of knowledge on the subject, is why Tesla Plc doesn't first repurchase and cancel the publicly-available shares at the current price, if Musk believes that the current share price undervalues the company and is due to short selling Tesla bears.

Seems to me that bOrn2sk8 is spot on. Supply and demand. Musk is simply not in a position today to "repurchase" the shares, even if he could do it at current prices which as suggested is not likely. Also even if it were possible, it would be seen by the market in my view as a lack of confidence in Tesla's future to offer no premium. At the proposed price of $ 420 per share, a completed LBO would, I believe, be the largest ever (in excess of $ 70 billion).

Why is Musk unable to repurchase even if everyone were to tender shares to Tesla at current prices? Tesla simply does not have the cash on hand nor the capacity to raise that much additional debt without assistance from third parties, hence the need for the LBO structure. Most analysts believe Musk is short of cash. Prior to yesterday's LBO news, he has disagreed saying that to run his operations in the near future he expects to be generating cash without the need to borrow. To need $ 2 billion to finance expansion is one thing. To need $70 billion is a totally different ballgame requiring creative thinking.

Incidentally, since the announcement yesterday, Tesla bonds have rallied. Equity short sellers have incurred significant losses recently.

Trump would put the brakes on this I would have thought, the UK defence industry might be croniee to the saudi's for their money, but is the USA as sychophantic;
other investors would be out of Tesla if they thought Saudi oil/petrol concerns might be biassing their investment decisions ?

I thougth a lot of the Tesla funding was also junk bonds, so do those 'investors' not have a say
Titans of Junk:

I may have been unclear about the Saudi involvement announced yesterday. The Saudi Wealth Fund has recently accumulated Tesla shares in the open market, at market prices, and its stake is worth perhaps $ 2 - $3 billion at today's price. They own less than 5% of outstanding shares so they are a purely passive owner today.

You raise an interesting question however about how Tesla would fund the Musk led LBO however. Assuming a classical structure of 70% debt and 30% equity and assuming a successful deal is reached at $ 420 per share or a total transaction value of $ 75 billion, the amount of new debt required would be approx $ 52 billion and the new equity slice would be the balance of $ 23 billion. I note that according to Bloomberg today, Musk held discussions with Softbank last year about a major investment but nothing happened. Your point about non-US control of Tesla is well taken in the current America First environment. I do not see that happening. CFIUS is a strong barrier. Having said that, I still see lots of risks ahead in pulling off this deal---we are talking huge numbers in LBO terms and I question the thinking of any strategic buyer to justify the numbers based on current Tesla prospects. But perhaps there is more at play than I can clearly see now. In my earlier post, I alluded to Tesla Mobility, the EV autonomous vehicle business adding value to a strategic buyers thinking. Maybe there is a lot more to Tesla value than meets the eye.be

If you assume that Tesla is able to attract strategic capital that has not been available to it to date, you probably are assuming that the best time for Musk to pull this off is now. As I mentioned in my earlier post, Tesla is in a sweet spot now which may change in a couple of years time. Now they are the only EV manufacturer capable of producing a few hundred thousand EVs per year and they will probably enjoy this advantage for at least another two years. Investors are assuming I believe that Tesla is in the best position it has ever been in to ramp Model 3 volumes. Hence I think is why Musk is attempting to arrange this deal now. Perhaps in two years, VW will be a very strong competitor, for example.

Finally in the interest in figuring who might be an interested strategic buyer to join Musk in this venture, I suggest Google, who are investors in SpaceX, a venture that has the potential to mesh well with Tesla over time. Could Google see a benefit for Waymo to have its EV fleet of cars and trucks be designed and manufactured together with Tesla or might it continue to work better with many others?

thing is autonomous vehicles are already here,

they've been running HGVs up and down the M8 in full autonomous mode for over a year now. granted its all motorway work and its RDC to RDC so fixed point to fixed point every day and theres a driver in the cab at all times but it works .

autonomous vehicles don't get tired, dont get distracted and don't make mistakes nearly as often as their human counterparts.

theres a nationwide shortage of hgv drivers, now I don't know if they would let them run fully autonomous or maybe allow a truck in autonomous mode to be driven longer by a driver between breaks who knows but their here and working.

That is really helpful to know. My sense was that the UK autonomous vehicle development was being constrained to some extent now by EU protocols. I suggest that if the tech is fully up to it, post Brexit they might be better able to conduct more and varied testing on public roads.

@sesevans ^ That's a great post and you obviously know an awful lot about corporate finance.

The bit I'm missing here, and this by contrast is probably showing my relative lack of knowledge on the subject, is why Tesla Plc doesn't first repurchase and cancel the publicly-available shares at the current price, if Musk believes that the current share price undervalues the company and is due to short selling Tesla bears.

Thinking some more about your post and my comments about how Tesla is considering asking its existing shareholders to maintain their holdings in a "Tesla Private Company", I have looked at the shareholder base to consider how feasible this is.

Here is what I considered:
Total number of Tesla shares outstanding: 171 million
Current market value based on $ 370 share price: $ 64.75 billion
Public float: 127.5 million shares
Institutional ownership: 62% of public float or 79 million shares
Top 5 institutional owners hold 56 million shares at 31/3/18
Elon Musk total share ownership: 33.7 million shares or 19.7% of total shares

Elon Musk has stated that he plans to continue to own his shares after the LBO. If he can convince the Top 5 institutional owners to continue their ownership in Tesla Private Co, that means that 52.4% of all equity holders are prepared to convert their public ownership into private ownership. Insider ownership accounts aside from Elon Musk accounts for another 10 million shares (approx 5.7% of total shares) and it is not known what the view of these holders would be under the new structure.

I can see a scenario where approx 50-60% of all current public share ownership convert to the private structure, meaning that the task to find new equity buyers for the balance is doable. As to the huge amounts of debt required (I estimated $ 52 billion previously), clearly it would be better for Tesla's capitalisation if the new debt needed were reduced by greater new equity.

Returning to Tesla's current financial situation, a higher share price triggered by a proposed $ 420 million buyout price has a couple of additional benefits for Tesla:
1. Tesla has a $ 920 million convertible bond coming due in March 2019 at a conversion price of approximately $ 360 per share. If Tesla shares are below this price next March, Tesla would have to find the cash to buy back the bonds. If Tesla shares are above this price, the bonds convert into equity and spare Tesla a use of cash.
2. At 30/6/18, Tesla cash held was $ 2.2 billion. For the first 6 months of 2018, Tesla free cash flow was a negative $ 1.8 billion.

People will be asking why Tesla announced the "take private" decision now and how Tesla handled the announcement. The SEC has already begun to inquire about the facts surrounding Tesla's announcement.

Hope this helps with the discussion.
 
The Saudi's are transitioning away from fossil fuels and are one of the leaders by dropping billions on renewable energy in the last few years. They are working very hard to diversify their economy, we will be buying their oil long after they stop using it ;).

SA realised a few years ago that unless they move in to something else their country probably won't survive the century.

They have a whole new region planned which will be built around solar power, modern laws and to attract as much foreign business as possible. That prince is trying to force them in to a new era.
 
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Indeed, they are putting $200 billion into solar over the next decade which buys 200gw of capacity.

It makes Hinckley at £20 billion for 3.2gw seem like a good deal. Oh wait....:eek:
 
Second thoughts by the market on the likelihood of the Tesla LBO? Shares are down about 6% today and at a lower price than when the deal was first tweeted about by Elon Musk.
 
While we wait for further developments in the Tesla LBO, the Board of Tesla has apparently asked Elon Musk for more information about funding sources and expects to hire financial advisors to begin the process of going private next week.

Meanwhile I note a few other AV developments:

1. Apple has hired the former head of AV at Tesla to join their self driving vehicle efforts. According to news sources, Apple's efforts have changed over the years from the idea of building their own AV to building the "driver", similar to Waymo's approach.

2. Ford has been discussing their AV plans and hopes to attract considerable capital for their now autonomous AV unit. Profit warnings from both Ford and General Motors have weighed on the shares of both companies however. This link discusses Ford's recently announced AV plans:

https://www.ttnews.com/articles/ford-aims-be-major-player-autonomous-technology
 
While we wait for further developments in the Tesla LBO, the Board of Tesla has apparently asked Elon Musk for more information about funding sources and expects to hire financial advisors to begin the process of going private next week.

Meanwhile I note a few other AV developments:

1. Apple has hired the former head of AV at Tesla to join their self driving vehicle efforts. According to news sources, Apple's efforts have changed over the years from the idea of building their own AV to building the "driver", similar to Waymo's approach.

2. Ford has been discussing their AV plans and hopes to attract considerable capital for their now autonomous AV unit. Profit warnings from both Ford and General Motors have weighed on the shares of both companies however. This link discusses Ford's recently announced AV plans:

https://www.ttnews.com/articles/ford-aims-be-major-player-autonomous-technology

Developments on Tesla today:

It appears that Tesla's mysterious funder is Saudi Arabia's Wealth Fund. Elon Musk has said that the rationale for Saudi Arabia is diversification away from their reliance on oil. Musk has also stated that the deal will not be a leveraged buyout because Saudi Arabia has offered to buy the shares of any equity investor who does not want to continue in the take-private deal. Musk also said that approximately two-thirds of equity holders prepared to convert their publicly traded equity into privately owned shares, meaning that approximately $ 20-$30 billion in cash would be needed to buy the remaining shares.

The SEC is still investigating Musk's tweet about "funding secured".
 
Well now ses is perma'd this has gone a little quite.
I noticed today the BBC had a piece about it, goes along the same lines in here as many predicted.

Quite an interesting read/view and I am sure will trigger some views.

The probably banning of human drivers the most emotive of course!

As far as change is concerned its well worth just taking a look to see the NYC photos. Slightly different I know, but just goes to show..

Comments are also quite funny. You know the usual sorts, lacking in imagination and understanding.
When the author says there will be a taxi waiting in the village, they think he means literally there will be only 1, rather than what someone with more than 2 brain cells gets, is that if "the taxi" is busy, it will send another so there is one free. The higher the demand and the more use, the more will be deployed. ;)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45786690
 
It was an interesting read. The cost savings they talk about don't take into account the recuperation of infrastructure costs but TBH I don't see huge cost savings as being the driving force. I think convenience will be the number one factor with cost second. The Netflix example given in the article is testament to this. People already pay for their transport on the drip and will happily shell out four figures on a phone because it is only £## per month with £## up front because it avoids a big lump sum outlay.

A contract with a mileage and/or usage allowance plus a pay as you go option and people will, understandably, be all over this idea.
 
Kudos for the writer to point out that they’ve written it all forcefully/fancifully. It’s a nice change from reading people that seem to genuinely think this will be the case.

A few points to mention though. While those images of New York are good sound bites it’s worth noting that it wasn’t until the late 20s that horses were actually overtaken by cars in the US and it wasn’t until WW2 that cars really put paid to horse and cart travel (discounting the continued significant use of horses in the US for travel and work - think cowboys and farmers). It wasn’t as fast a transition as some like to make it out to be. That leads on to the next point;

I’m guessing the futurologists (and presumably the author) are city dwellers that live and recreate in the city, probably either single or with no younger children. I was one for quite a while. I only learned to drive at 22 and didn’t get my first car until a couple of years ago - on the occasion that public transport wasn’t an option I borrowed families vehicles. Living in a city or large town with good public transport helps reduce the need for car ownership - many of those that may transition probably don’t need a car anyway and could well do without now.

Conversely we need to come up with convenient solutions to the next few issues, that will put a kibosh on a lot of people not having a primary vehicle.

How do we deal with people that aren’t just looking for a car to commute back and forwards to work/shops? Those that need “specialist” equipment to transport things (such as bike or canoe/kayak racks), having to order a vehicle 24-48 hours before your spontaneous trip to the lake or bike hill will be a bit annoying... What about the people that go camping? Just hire the vehicle for the whole weekend so you can store your stuff in it and don’t have to wait the half an hour if you forgot the milk at the local shop?

What about people with children (and a lot of people that don’t have)? How many people do you know with clean cars inside, with no personal things they keep in them? Whether that be the spare jacket/shoes or the pair of car seats and bag of bits for the kids. You’re going to have to store them by your door in a big pile and put them in/take them out every trip, or you’re going to have to specify how many seats and for how old if you’re just hailing a vehicle. Where do you store your own child seats if you’re not going home? Rent the vehicle for a day every day? Why not just save your time and rent it for an entire week, which may as well turn into a year...

As Lordrobs mentions, it’s convenience that’s will drive this, not cost (many people will find it cheaper without a car now, but would prefer their own vehicle to taking a taxi/public transport). Some will find it more convenient to just not own a car (as I used to, and would still do if I moved back to London), others would find it more convenient to just own their vehicle because their lifestyle in some way means it’s a pain having to hire a specialist vehicle - for me that would be bikes/kayaks and a 4x4 to drive me to a trailhead down a bumpy track, but for others that could be as simple as having one child.

That’s not to say they won’t take off, or that it won’t reduce car ownership - we don’t really need a second car, but it costs nothing to run (registration is minimal and insurance is less than the discount for multi car) and is useful for the times we do need two vehicles. A cheap automated taxi would solve that issue, if it was cheap enough. - but the wholesale change they’re talking about, in 10 years? No chance IMO. Things aren’t “clean” enough in the real world, especially when a lot of the benefits will be available to owners as well (buying an automated EV means you do t have to drive and maintenance would be lower, just like the taxis).
 
and it wasn’t until WW2 that cars really put paid to horse and cart travel

WW2 was a game changer in that respect - people like my gran went from the horse and cart era to driving ambulances and delivering military vehicles, etc. pretty much overnight and you don't really go back from that (I'm not sure she even had a proper license until the 80/90s and never passed any proper test).
 
I agree with AMP, they will put a big dent in maned taxi services in city centres but not replace ownership for the reasons you just mentioned.

Convenience is king followed by cost.
 
My view is the only thing that will kill private ownership is banning manual drivers.

I see no one restricting the ability to own, it would make little sense, so those who would be badly served by a distributed service model would still be able to buy their own. As the service improves and you start to gain benefits then people will slowly switch.

Take for example a breakdown. You own your own vehicle, you need to either pay for a recovery type organisation to take the gamble in regards breakdowns. With this model you dont worry, if it breaks down then you have a new one delivered. (Subject to availability of course)
Potentially depending how the model developed you may be able to book in advance. So have a smaller version for the normal commute, book a larger longer range version, or maybe a SUV type for the weekend as your going camping.
You may in face have far more availability of better options outside the normal ownership route.
This would clearly depend on the options developed.

One thing I think will tip people towards electric faster is the likely impact on the cost of fuel.
There are restricted numbers of garages now, imagine how this will develop as critical mass starts to move to elec. They will become fewer, or they will need to add a higher margin for fuel to cover the reduce demand.
I can see it getting to the point you would have to have deliveries taking place like you do with domestic fuel oil.
Wouldnt affect classics and things, but trying to hang on as a ICE driver when the critical mass has gone against you is likely to be expensive.

How far out, who knows.
 
I agree with AMP, they will put a big dent in maned taxi services in city centres but not replace ownership for the reasons you just mentioned.

Convenience is king followed by cost.
The taxi replacement scenario is where I think automated vehicles make so much sense and from a booking perspective this has already been proven with the domination of UBER.

I can't see the concept replacing owned vehicles because there simply wouldn't be enough vehicles to meet peak demand and if there were there would be huge numbers sat dormant for the bulk of the day, which wouldn't be cost effective. Until you have as many people working 6 to 2, 11 to 7, 3 to 11 etc. as we do 9 to 5 then there is no case for individual automated transportation replacing public transport or a personal vehicle for the daily commute.

It might, if it is cheap enough cause a public transport commuter or retired person to consider whether they need a car that gets used for 50 days a year or less. I'm thinking of those that only end up covering 2 or 3 thousand miles a year. If you could call up a private vehicle to pick you up and drop you where you need to go and it works reliably and cheaply... why would you choose the hassle of owning and maintaining a car for a similar cost?
 
I see no one restricting the ability to own, it would make little sense, so those who would be badly served by a distributed service model would still be able to buy their own. As the service improves and you start to gain benefits then people will slowly switch.

Take for example a breakdown. You own your own vehicle, you need to either pay for a recovery type organisation to take the gamble in regards breakdowns. With this model you dont worry, if it breaks down then you have a new one delivered. (Subject to availability of course)
Potentially depending how the model developed you may be able to book in advance. So have a smaller version for the normal commute, book a larger longer range version, or maybe a SUV type for the weekend as your going camping.
You may in face have far more availability of better options outside the normal ownership route.
This would clearly depend on the options developed.

This is basically what Lynk&Co are suggesting for their flexible ownership model which I think is a great idea... until I take a look at the only other car share scheme I have to compare it to (the Norfolk Car Club) and their fleet of battered, used and abused cars!
 
This is basically what Lynk&Co are suggesting for their flexible ownership model which I think is a great idea... until I take a look at the only other car share scheme I have to compare it to (the Norfolk Car Club) and their fleet of battered, used and abused cars!

True, its far from a stretch though to envision that places like Hertz would be able to offer a different business model at this point, I mean they are going to need to adapt if the industry continues to go the way it is.

I actually find it quite exciting what may eventually come, and at my age, I can envision it being the difference between me becoming less mobile or remaining mobile when things like eyesight/general infirmness etc become issues to me.

Unfortunately I expect to be seriously let down :)
 
The subscription service is certainly going to become popular - more and more manufacturers are going to provide it as a service. To me that’s still owning a vehicle though and fundamentally different to the ride sharing premise in the link.

The subscription service is essentially a more flexible lease, which will be useful to some who already lease vehicles or swap and change regularly. How it takes off for those that own their vehicles outright is another question.

It’s good to have more options though.
 
You don't own it unless you own it though. If your leasing or renting it as part of a service you don't own the car and they can take it back.
 
Agree, owning is owning, everything else isn't

The point in owning will still exist. You may want particular extras, or be one of them people who has a massive horde of stuff you lug around all the time

I do also get that it could be really annoying, imagine one turns up, turns out last occupant was a douche, its got loads of rubbish in it, its really dirty etc
I guess these sorts of issue would also trigger solutions, but for sure its going to happen

I guess we just have to accept that we were really lucky. We were drivers during the best period (so far) to have been. Cars are significantly cheaper for the quality they provide, they are more reliable (although typically more expensive to fix when they do go wrong) and the ranges etc are around the highest they ever have been. This will almost certainly change, but we can at least say we were then, and had the benefit :)
 
Well in which case I'm not arguing against leasing/subscription services where you "look after" a vehicle for a long period of time (i.e. a year or more), rather the premise of the so called "ride sharing"*, which involves requesting the use of a vehicle for a short time before moving on to the next request (i.e. automated taxis) - the latter is what's usually argued for with regards to no one "owning" a vehicle any more, rather than just an extension of leasing.

*It's not ride sharing any more than Uber is. Ride sharing was (and still is) the process of sharing a vehicle with someone who was driving to that destination. That's how the term came about and that's what the apps that used it started as. It's now been co-opted by taxis, who can't use the term taxi because it involves more regulation.
 
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