Baltimore Bridge

BowdonUK said:
I'm surprised the entire bridge collapsed. I thought it would have stopped at the other supports.
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It didn't did it? The centre section collapsed. A lot of the bridge is still intact.

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Disco_P said:
So the ship has a deadweight of 116,000 tonnes.

In 1969, the largest ship in the world was 29,000 tonnes.
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I think your a little out there....
On 2nd May 1969 the first of the giant oil tankers to be built at the Swan Hunter shipyard at Wallsend was launched by Princess Anne. The Esso Northumbria at 253,000 tons was the biggest ship in the world at the time.
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dowie said:
Why do you think the barriers take the shape they do?

p6DqgFf.png


This is false:


On the left hand side you need to handle much more force to bring the ship or boat to a complete halt, on the right-hand side the ship still maintains some momentum and is deflected, that inherently requires less force.
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Okay I’ll play along. We’re moving away from the original point but this looks like fun.

Take your image on the right and sweep the ships impact point across the entire frontal cross section of your barrier and explain to me how the component of velocity changes at the different impact locations.

Now sweep your ship so it impacts at different angles with your barrier and explain again how the component of velocity changes at different angles.
 
Chuk_Chuk said:
Okay I’ll play along. We’re moving away from the original point but this looks like fun.

Take your image on the right and sweep the ships impact point across the entire frontal cross section of your barrier and explain to me how the component of velocity changes at the different impact locations.

Now sweep your ship so it impacts at different angles with your barrier and explain again how the component of velocity changes at different angles.
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No, this was the original point - tell me how deflecting a ship is going to be harder than bringing it to a halt..

Suppose a ship is just grazing the barrier - that is clearly not harder right? Now make it a slightly worse collision... becomes harder than grazing it right? And worse still and so on.. eventually, you come to a point approaching perpendicular where you're not going to be able to deflect and it's going to absorb all of the impact of the ship hitting it.

More to the point - try explaining why absorbing some of the momentum of the ship is going to be "harder" than absorbing all of it?

Answer - it isn't - this is basic conservation of momentum. I don't need to know whether the ship is going to just graze the barrier at a very slight angle or whether it's going to be a hefty-ish impact at a larger angle that is still deflected, the fact that there is still some momentum conserved when deflecting it vs bringing it to a complete halt already negates your claim that deflecting it could be harder.
 
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If they want to prevent it in future, then just have a rule that any cargo container has to be escorted though a bridge by 1-2 tug boats.


can't be that many bridges cargo container vessels go under surely.
 
arknor said:
If they want to prevent it in future, then just have a rule that any cargo container has to be escorted though a bridge by 1-2 tug boats.


can't be that many bridges cargo container vessels go under surely.
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What if the tug loses power like the ship did?

Not saying its a bad idea, it is sensible, how do you mitigate against all possible scenarios.
 
dowie said:
No, this was the original point - tell me how deflecting a ship is going to be harder than bringing it to a halt..

Suppose a ship is just grazing the barrier - that is clearly not harder right? Now make it a slightly worse collision... becomes harder right? And worse still and so on.. eventually, you come to a point where you're not going to be able to deflect and it's going to absorb all of the impact of the ship hitting it.

More to the point - try explaining why absorbing some of the momentum of the ship is going to be "harder" than absorbing all of it?
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I said “just as hard if not harder”. The harder bit was in reference to extreme conditions were you’re expecting to absorb a significant amount of kinetic energy but must transfer the kinetic energy back to the ship to change its velocity so that you can “deflect the ship” or whatever you actually meant by that statement.


Now then Do the question I asked. Go on since it’s just basic physics you should be able to easily do the maths to calculate the component velocity of the ship at different approach angles and frontal collision points. It’s just trigonometry. We need to make sure the barriers work in all conditions right?

Also please explain how you’re going to control the point of impact of the ship to ensure you only get the shallow graze angles you are talking about and not any of the worst case conditions where you have to absorb significant amount of kinetic energy.

After you can explain how you’re going to build your barrier to not plastically deform (or how the ships hull won’t just plastically deform) under the immense kinetic energy load and how it will remain rigid enough to allow for this “deflection” you are talking about?
 
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Chuk_Chuk said:
I said “just as hard if not harder”. The harder bit was in reference to extreme conditions were you’re expecting to absorb a significant amount of kinetic energy but must transfer the kinetic energy back to the ship to change its velocity so that you can “deflect the ship” or whatever you actually meant by that statement.
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Which is completely wrong as already explained - you're still conserving some momentum in the direction perpendicular to the bridge if you're deflecting the ship vs bringing it to a compete halt.

That it can be a "significant amount" of kinetic energy doesn't matter, it's still going to be an even more significant amount and thus even harder if you want to halt the thing!

Chuk_Chuk said:
After you can explain how you’re going to build your barrier to not plastically deform (or how the ships hull won’t just plastically deform) under the immense kinetic energy load and how it will remain rigid enough to allow for this “deflection” you are talking about?
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I don't need to explain that at all, these things already exist. Nor did I claim that a ship wouldn't deform or would be deflected in every scenario. It's your claim that deflecting a ship is as hard or harder than brining it to an immediate halt that is falty here.
 
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A tunnel will take far longer no? Having to move massive borers that are either not built or already doing other jobs seems unlikely to be feasible versus getting steel orders going that could be done immediately. That's ignoring how long it would take for the planning process itself.

Also it would mean you couldn't transport hazardous materials through in trucks which is partly why the bridge was important.
 
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Chuk_Chuk said:
I said “just as hard if not harder”. The harder bit was in reference to extreme conditions were you’re expecting to absorb a significant amount of kinetic energy but must transfer the kinetic energy back to the ship to change its velocity so that you can “deflect the ship” or whatever you actually meant by that statement.


Now then Do the question I asked. Go on since it’s just basic physics you should be able to easily do the maths to calculate the component velocity of the ship at different approach angles and frontal collision points. It’s just trigonometry. We need to make sure the barriers work in all conditions right?

Also please explain how you’re going to control the point of impact of the ship to ensure you only get the shallow graze angles you are talking about and not any of the worst case conditions where you have to absorb significant amount of kinetic energy.

After you can explain how you’re going to build your barrier to not plastically deform (or how the ships hull won’t just plastically deform) under the immense kinetic energy load and how it will remain rigid enough to allow for this “deflection” you are talking about?
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dowie said:
Which is completely wrong as already explained - you're still conserving some momentum in the direction perpendicular to the bridge if you're deflecting the ship vs bringing it to a compete halt.

That it can be a "significant amount" of kinetic energy doesn't matter, it's still going to be an even more significant amount and thus even harder if you want to halt the thing!



I don't need to explain that at all, these things already exist. Nor did I claim that a ship wouldn't deform or would be deflected in every scenario. It's your claim that deflecting a ship is as hard or harder than brining it to an immediate halt that is falty here.
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I think you two need to get a slide rule, or a room.


It is possible to provide large enough fenders on piled dolphin structures to berth and moor these ships travelling at several metres per second, it is therefore feasible to provide several of these structures to protect a critical bridge structure from impact.accepting thst some damage may occur on both the vessel and the protection structure.

Several lines of 3000mm diameter steel piles driven deep into the sea bed with a thick concrete deck sounds about right with some of the piles as rakers.
 
Grim5 said:
According to MAGA voters, if America didn't send old weapons to Ukraine then this Singaporean ship would not have lost power and gone straight into a bridge support
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So far today I’ve read that this happened because of DEI (Baltimore mayor is black), Israel, China and of course “Biden and the woke mob” lol.

Their ability to wedge dunce tier culture war nonsense into everything is remarkable
 
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Hagar said:
I think you two need to get a slide rule, or a room.


It is possible to provide large enough fenders on piled dolphin structures to berth and moor these ships travelling at several metres per second, it is therefore feasible to provide several of these structures to protect a critical bridge structure from impact.accepting thst some damage may occur on both the vessel and the protection structure.

Several lines of 3000mm diameter steel piles driven deep into the sea bed with a thick concrete deck sounds about right with some of the piles as rakers.
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Dowie has got my point already. At this point I’m giving him fetch quests since he wants to pointlessly argue.
 
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