Base null in centre of room

Soldato
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Hi guys. Seems what ever I do with Sub placement I just end up with a large null in the centre of my room. Unfortunately the centre of the room is my seating position.
Room is more or less a perfect 12ft square which from reading about means I’m pretty much stuffed for centre room acoustics?

Do I just admit defeat and change all my speaker placements for more of a rear wall seating position? Running 7.1 at the moment so would have to drop to 5.1 obviously as rear wall seating is no good for 7.1
 
Hi guys. Seems what ever I do with Sub placement I just end up with a large null in the centre of my room. Unfortunately the centre of the room is my seating position.
Room is more or less a perfect 12ft square which from reading about means I’m pretty much stuffed for centre room acoustics?

Do I just admit defeat and change all my speaker placements for more of a rear wall seating position? Running 7.1 at the moment so would have to drop to 5.1 obviously as rear wall seating is no good for 7.1

Put the Sub in the centre of the room where you sit. Then play some music/movies. Walk around the room and see where you hear/feel the best bass. Put the sub in that location.
 
Put the Sub in the centre of the room where you sit. Then play some music/movies. Walk around the room and see where you hear/feel the best bass. Put the sub in that location.

Done the sub crawl. I can find the perfect spot while crawling, swap positions and the base still hits 4ft or so Infront and behind my seating position. :mad:
 
7.1 is overrated anyway IMO.

5.1 with deep bass is better.

What about some Atmos ceiling speakers as well for 5.1.2

Tempted by the 5.1.2 option and sounds like what I will end up doing. Best choice at the front or back if just running 2 Atmos? Can’t remember if my receiver does 5.1.4(runs off to google)
 
Done the sub crawl. I can find the perfect spot while crawling, swap positions and the base still hits 4ft or so Infront and behind my seating position. :mad:

Ok, then you are going to have to change things up. If the Sub is away from the walls, push it closer to the walls, if it's close move it further away. If it's not in the corner, move it into the corner. etc.

If you think the bass null is been caused by reflections from the rear wall, try hanging a duvet there and see what happens. Some pillows in the corners of the room might also help. If one of these things work, you can sort out something that looks better.
 
Ok, then you are going to have to change things up. If the Sub is away from the walls, push it closer to the walls, if it's close move it further away. If it's not in the corner, move it into the corner. etc.

If you think the bass null is been caused by reflections from the rear wall, try hanging a duvet there and see what happens. Some pillows in the corners of the room might also help. If one of these things work, you can sort out something that looks better.

Thanks for the reply , looks like I have a busy weekend ahead :D
 
Put the Sub in the centre of the room where you sit. Then play some music/movies. Walk around the room and see where you hear/feel the best bass. Put the sub in that location.

Buy a miniDSP2x4HD and a UMIK-1 and measure via REW for nulls. I wouldn't bother with this oudated method if you can get to the grips with basic measuring lol.
 
Buy a miniDSP2x4HD and a UMIK-1 and measure via REW for nulls. I wouldn't bother with this oudated method if you can get to the grips with basic measuring lol.

wow, I don't even know how to respond to this post. For a start he has only one sub and you would have him spend a couple of hundred on a minidsp for 2 aligning two or more subs. Second, he knows exactly where the null is. Third, less EQ is always better than more EQ.

Placing the Subwoofer in the seating position isn't outdated at all. It's still one of the best ways to position your Sub correctly.
 
wow, I don't even know how to respond to this post. For a start he has only one sub and you would have him spend a couple of hundred on a minidsp for 2 aligning two or more subs. Second, he knows exactly where the null is. Third, less EQ is always better than more EQ.

Placing the Subwoofer in the seating position isn't outdated at all. It's still one of the best ways to position your Sub correctly.


Not at all.

You can get a dramatically better, smoother response with one sub using a miniDP2x4HD.

In subwoofer world, in no way is less EQ better than more EQ. A subwoofer, unless in a perfect room in a perfect room, with perfect placement, will have peaks and nulls. The peaks can be just as detrimental to the sound of a subwoofer as the nulls; because the peaks will drown our the accuracy and lower bass frequedncies which don't generate the same ammount of SPL.

I've had DRAMATIC increases in sub performance, accuracy and sound with a minidsp2x4HD even when running one subwoofer.

Doing a subcrawl only shows you the position your subwoofer generates the most perceivable SPL. Its essentially a guessing game for performance. You won't know how your sub performs at 20, 40, 60hz.. and your sub might even be encountering multiple nulls and just having a bloated big boom from a few frequencies instead which is perceived via the sub crawl as 'good bass'.. its not!

You're not going to get the tightest, best sound following a cheap subcrawl.



MiniDSP2x4HD is a buy once, cry once addition to any decent setup which wants a good level or LFE.

Likewise it also opens up the usage for BassEQ and custom filters for films and videogames.

Its not one of the best ways. Its a crap, cheap way. Measurements and seeing the response curve are far far far far more advantageous than moving the subwoofer around a room. A sub crawl is a very cheap method for finding the part of the room where your sub generates the most SPL and thats all. Its not going to provide you with a smooth response curve, its not going to allow you to pinpoint which frequencies are there for peaks and nulls, its not going to educate you on if and how a second subwoofer will perform in the same space etc.

What is your expeirence in subwoofer calibration and optimisation in a home theatre context to allow you make such bold claims that a subcrawl is one of the best ways to position a sub? Its a cheap method but its far frar far far inferior to any method which allows measurements of the response curve. What setup do you have? What subs have you owned? Which rooms have you had them in? What measurements and use cases do you have to prove your subcrawl is performing at all a smooth response for sub performance?

How do you using a sub crawl ensure your subwoofer is putputting the smoothest bass response across MULTIPLe seats and listening positions?


whether its worth the investment for a PB1000 is probably a different argument and comes down to your own cost analysis. in my experience, its dramatically improved even cheap subs like BK ones so I'm sure it'd work some magic on a PB1000.
 
Completely concur with the above. melmac, i think you're wrong on each of your points.

wow, I don't even know how to respond to this post. For a start he has only one sub and you would have him spend a couple of hundred on a minidsp for 2 aligning two or more subs. Second, he knows exactly where the null is. Third, less EQ is always better than more EQ.

Placing the Subwoofer in the seating position isn't outdated at all. It's still one of the best ways to position your Sub correctly.

Minidsp is not just for time aligning more than one sub. It can do that, but that is only a small element of the process and what it can do. Knowing where the null is doesn't help fix any peaks and troughs. Less EQ is better than more EQ?? Only if the response is exactly as you want to begin with, as in the perfect sub/perfect placement/perfect room/perfect seating position etc. i.e. Not likely!

Here's my sub response from REW:-
vvwZWIJh.jpg

The purple is the best sub position in the room I have. You seem to be saying that's the best, and I shouldn't have used the minidsp to get the blue response by applying EQ and filters etc.? Come on...
 
ok, guys, I should quantify some statements before you both have a heart attack!!

First, I am only talking about one sub setups. For most people, a proper sub crawl, setting up phase correctly, setting crossover frequencies in the receiver to 10-15hz more than the speakers lower end, setting up correct speaker distance, then playing around with the subwoofer distance will achieve really good results without spending any money. Can you get better results using a DSP and mic like the ones suggested? Sure, but, most people wouldn't even notice.

Have found that rooms that need a lot of EQ'ing to sound good, tend to be setups where the subwoofer placement is limited by either aesthetics or having only a limited number of places to position the sub.

I should have been more clear in my statement about more eq'ing = less eq'ing, I was talking strictly about the OP's situation. Using Eq to solve bass nulls is generally not recommended. Small bass nulls, maybe, but, for large ones like the OP has, it's usually best avoided if possible.

If he really wants to throw 100's of pounds at solving the problem and has the room, I would suggest a second subwoofer before a DSP.
 
Tempted by the second sub option as I do have room to grab another SB1000. The rest of the setup is pretty decent (Speakers are Dali opticon 2 MK2’s) so obviously want the best result after spending far too much money :cry:
 
ok, guys, I should quantify some statements before you both have a heart attack!!

First, I am only talking about one sub setups. For most people, a proper sub crawl, setting up phase correctly, setting crossover frequencies in the receiver to 10-15hz more than the speakers lower end, setting up correct speaker distance, then playing around with the subwoofer distance will achieve really good results without spending any money. Can you get better results using a DSP and mic like the ones suggested? Sure, but, most people wouldn't even notice.

Have found that rooms that need a lot of EQ'ing to sound good, tend to be setups where the subwoofer placement is limited by either aesthetics or having only a limited number of places to position the sub.

I should have been more clear in my statement about more eq'ing = less eq'ing, I was talking strictly about the OP's situation. Using Eq to solve bass nulls is generally not recommended. Small bass nulls, maybe, but, for large ones like the OP has, it's usually best avoided if possible.

If he really wants to throw 100's of pounds at solving the problem and has the room, I would suggest a second subwoofer before a DSP.


You don't notice a flat response sub?

I'm shocked. The difference is night and day. A sub crawl can't do anythig to eliminate PEAKs and NULLs and peaks can be EXTREMELY overpowering.

What experience do you have with REW and EQing subwoofers? You're making bold claims which in my experience go against anything I've experienced when tuning subs.

A BK monolith+ with a mini DSP 2x4HD was better sounding than a subwoofer I bought (without mini DSP) 3x its price.


OP hasn't even posted an REW graph to know where his nulls are. This is why a mini DSP2x4HD, REW and UMIK are so important. They allow you to pinpoint and troubleshoot issues; solving them for optimal sound and performance.

crawling around your room with a subwoofer telling someone to shout at you when it sounds best isn't going to do anything remotely helpful compared to that.
 
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