Bi Wire Speakers

Simon Parker · 18 Nov 2017 at 20:29

I've got my Yamaha wired to my B&W's in Bi Amp mode, it didn't sound better really until I found a setting to switch speakers to 'same size' All my speakers are b&w 602 series . now the tweeters are singing like an annoying ice cream van god damn it !

mistersprinkles · 19 Nov 2017 at 02:02

I don't understand the question?

Simon Parker · 19 Nov 2017 at 09:37

OK thanks mate I just wanted to run this by people

Participant · 19 Nov 2017 at 09:55

Bi wire or bi amp, which is it? I don't understand the point either.

Simon Parker · 19 Nov 2017 at 12:33

Participant said:
Bi wire or bi amp, which is it? I don't understand the point either.

both, the amp allow a 2nd zone or bi amp/ bi wire.

I am wondering what the point of it is. The speakers have a crossover circuit don't they ? Doesn't this mean the tweeters and the woofers are still connected in side the speakers ?

skyripper · 19 Nov 2017 at 13:27

Bi-wiring is where you run one set of cables for the woofer and a second for the mid/tweeter from one amp per speaker.
Bi-amping is where you have two amps, one for bass and a second for mid/tweet per speaker.
You need speakers with 4 posts on each, 2xL, 2xR.
For both of these, you probably need to remove the jumper plates connecting the sockets on the back of the speaker.

I've never been able to tell a difference with bi-wired speakers though.
It might make a difference in audio listening rooms with thousand pounds of equipment, but it seems in the 90s everyone started whacking multiple banana posts on £40 speakers and they're still there now.

hornetstinger · 19 Nov 2017 at 13:43

You should not set your speakers to full range they are not full range speakers.

hornetstinger · 19 Nov 2017 at 17:33

skyripper said:
Bi-wiring is where you run one set of cables for the woofer and a second for the mid/tweeter from one amp per speaker.
Bi-amping is where you have two amps, one for bass and a second for mid/tweet per speaker.
You need speakers with 4 posts on each, 2xL, 2xR.
For both of these, you probably need to remove the jumper plates connecting the sockets on the back of the speaker.

I've never been able to tell a difference with bi-wired speakers though.
It might make a difference in audio listening rooms with thousand pounds of equipment, but it seems in the 90s everyone started whacking multiple banana posts on £40 speakers and they're still there now.

Bi-amping is worth it, but only on pretty decent gear. If you have a AVR and budget speakers you won't notice it. For my 2 channel system, I have two x two channel power amplifiers, a Outlaw ICBM between pre and power, so the two power amplifiers only receive >60hz, and <60hz is sent to the sub. So amp power is given to those frequencies which are needed.

Active bi-amping is better but that would mean re-wiring my speakers, getting custom active crossovers- something that is out of my reach and experience. Perhaps if I started from the outset with gear that allows it- ie Linn.

Simon Parker · 22 Nov 2017 at 18:42

Like I said, all the settings are done inside the Yamaha AV amp, it has 6 stereo amps and I think you can choose from front effects, bi-amp or a second zone in another room. It sets itself up using a microphone, however I think I set front speakers to 'all same size' the other day ( using B&W 602 LR+C) made a big improvement for some reason. I don't know if there are frequency filters inside the amps for tweeters and woofers or else you would have to make sure you had them wired up properly, I guess the crossover in the speakers are effectively cut into a high filter and a low filter when you remove the links between the pins.

It's all a bit complicated !

hornetstinger · 22 Nov 2017 at 20:01

Simon Parker said:
Like I said, all the settings are done inside the Yamaha AV amp, it has 6 stereo amps and I think you can choose from front effects, bi-amp or a second zone in another room. It sets itself up using a microphone, however I think I set front speakers to 'all same size' the other day ( using B&W 602 LR+C) made a big improvement for some reason. I don't know if there are frequency filters inside the amps for tweeters and woofers or else you would have to make sure you had them wired up properly, I guess the crossover in the speakers are effectively cut into a high filter and a low filter when you remove the links between the pins.

It's all a bit complicated !

Bi-amping when your AVR shares the power supply is pointless, it's the same power regardless. If you want to bi-amp, then look into two, stereo power amplifiers.

Again you should not do that with the crossovers, if you set to large. If you set speakers to individual size, that's ok, but typically you'll find each speaker has different bass response, so setting all to 80hz is fine, as long as your bass weakest speaker can play down to 80hz. If you have huge floorstanders, and a tiny little center and rears, then you should not set every speaker to small 40hz, because your center and rears receive bass they can't reproduce.

I had the smaller B&W 601's. With the B&W 602 I'd set them to around small 60-80hz. Or if you're listening to 2 channel CD music then pure direct will be fine, as music doesn't have the extreme LF content which can cause problems with standmount speakers.

I guess the crossover in the speakers are effectively cut into a high filter and a low filter when you remove the links between the pins.

Nah they don't do that, crossovers are still in the path. You're thinking about active bi-amping, where the crossovers are removed. If you did what you did with proper active speakers, you'd have blown the treble drivers instantly.

Doug2507 · 14 Dec 2017 at 06:09

Bi wire is foo. I've never been a believer in bi-wiring, tried in various systems including 803D and it makes sod all difference. Recently changed my office speakers to QA concept 20 and QA are adamant that you should bi wire they're speakers. I humoured them last night with some QED (what they use for internal wiring) fed by a CA 851. Sod all difference.

Proper bi amping can make a difference but as mentioned earlier in this thread it'll depend on what the make up of your system is / gear used and most of the time it's for bigger systems when you need the sheer grunt of two monos.

kidloco · 14 Dec 2017 at 10:03

hornetstinger said:
Bi-amping when your AVR shares the power supply is pointless, it's the same power regardless. If you want to bi-amp, then look into two, stereo power amplifiers.

I would disagree with this statement. In the past every AV amp I had that had ahe ability to bi-amp my front left,right channels I used it, and in all cases it made a very noticeable improvement. Giving the speakers more control.

It was my very basic understanding that amps that such a feature, basically dedicated a wattage per channel. and by choosing not to use the extra 2 channels used by 7.1 you could use that extra power to feed the tweeter or bass driver of your front 2 channels independently.

Im certainly no expert in this field so if im wrong ill hold my hands up. But arnt AV amps always split into so many dedicated amp channels, say 7 x 200w etc. If you only plug a single speaker in you only get 200w, not 1400.

hornetstinger · 14 Dec 2017 at 12:43

It was my very basic understanding that amps that such a feature, basically dedicated a wattage per channel. and by choosing not to use the extra 2 channels used by 7.1 you could use that extra power

It's not extra power, when biamping power stays the same. However you are still limited to the amps power supply, so when using AVR it's the same power supply. Wheras if you had two dedicated seperate amps, you have two power supplies.

I am biamping my Hi-Fi, however I am using the following (in order of signal)

Audiolab 8000Q
Outlaw ICBM to the following three
Power amplifier / Power amplifier / Subwoofer

That is biamping, also I am feeding the power amplifiers >60hz, with the sub <60hz. That isn't active biamping still, as the speakers still have own crossovers. It's biamping, the two amps are receiving only the frequencies above 60hz. So not reproducing the lower frequencies.

It is still two seperate amps, so power amp for bass does not interfere with the midrange/hf amplifier

"proper" biamping is having a line level crossover, similar to the ICBM but dedicated HF and LF outputs, bypassing the crossovers in the speakers themselves. This is active bi-amping. It's too rich for me, also pretty much once set the crossover and speakers are a single entity, so if you change speakers, you need to change active crossover as well. Since I've changed speakers a few times, this never appealed for me. Plus you need PHD in speaker design to know what to do with the crossover, or just buy ready made for that speaker specific crossover unit.

In active speaker mode, if you connect the low frequency speaker cable to the high frequency terminals and you play music, your treble driver will blow instantly - as it's a direct connection. So triple check your wiring!! (and probably use a cheap pair of passive speakers two cable runs are correct- play music with one speaker cable with bridging posts, if you hear treble sound only that is the treble signal, same for bass signal- to test before you finally connect your active speakers)

tweeter or bass driver of your front 2 channels independently.

It doesn't feed them independently, there is still a crossover inside the speakers. Perhaps if AVR's had function where in bi-amp mode, one amplifier only receives below speaker crossover point, another above, then this'll help power ie

AVR
2 way speakers, 1 treble, one midrange/ bass. 2khz treble driver, F3 of 60hz.
L/R channels- signal into midrange/bass is >60hz to 2khz
Spere bi-amp channels - singal into treble driver >2khz.

So the bi-amp channels won't be stressed at all, probably only require 1-5W at the most, and because it's not reproducing full range/ 60hz-2khz, it's not draining power.

Btw, even if you have bookshelf speakers, and set your amplifier to full-range (or have a hifi with no bass management) Your amplifier is still using power to amplify those frequencies your speakers cannot reproduce.

But arnt AV amps always split into so many dedicated amp channels, say 7 x 200w etc. If you only plug a single speaker in you only get 200w, not 1400.

True, but more channels you connect, you will find power per channel drops. Not many avr's have the same power output with 1 and 7 speakers connected, only the very best ones. Also you won't find any 200W x 7 AVR's, that is high end power amp area, like ATI 2007 at about £4000 or so.