bookshelf speakers for mini-system & pre-teen

[Naltar]

As we bought a mini-hifi for our daughter (13), it was hard not to notice my son (11) jumping, silently, on the "metoo" bandwagon. As I had recently been scanning ebay and amazon for daughter’s set, now I stumbled upon a 2nd hand Panasonic pmx82 (the basic specs are RMS 120W, 2 x 60W, 3ohms, 10% THD - and I came across opinion that the 60W / 3 ohms is poor).
Nevertheless, it was practically unused and, for 70 quid, well, cheap (it wasn't a random choice just on price, it has required specs, i.e. reads flac files off usb stick, dab+, bluetooth streaming, cd tray, etc). BUT - it came with no speakers (which I knew before buying).
Now, to speakers, I don't want to buy the cheapest car bootsale / gumtree. But I don't want to spend a lot either, firstly, because the "end user" is young and, typically for kids, even more typically for current generation, he's not too fussy (YET) whether he listens to a 128 kbps mp3 or a cd, or even crackly radio (not that he plays music very loud yet, thanks God). That said, I have made him aware there is good quality sound out there, and he enjoys listening to cds on our living room system. But, his bedroom is, obviously, not a sound studio, i.e. typical, smallish (approx. 3m x 3.5 m), and in no way optimised for good sound distribution (general pre-teen clutter). On top of all this I feel it makes no sense to spend a lot of money on speakers, when the system itself is "hifi", but only when you compare it with the horror both kids use for music everyday, i.e. mobiles, typically with sound coming through mono speaker, what else.
Is there any speaker(s) that I should consider in the circumstances? I don't mind 2nd hand (my son is, fortunately, not fussy about the looks or "new" either). I heard only praise about Wharfedale 9.1, still available new from Amazon for £120, and for around 70 - 80 off ebay, 2nd hand. I do like their looks and finish, and reviews are solid 5-stars, but I'm worried that the Panasonic mini is simply too weak to drive such speakers, plus, an overkill for a small room and the user who will - probably - not appreciate its superior sound quality any time soon. Should I be looking at something smaller and cheaper perhaps, like used Tannoy M1, or Mordaunt, on ebay for, roughly 40 - 50 quid and up? (Short 902i, MS10i, MS25Ti, etc.). In fact, there's quite a range of small speakers on amazon, new, approx. £60 - 80, e.g. Short M10, Mission lx1, and even Wharfedale 9.0. Smaller than 9.1, and poorer sound quality, but then, does it matter, given the... context? Perhaps I should just stop splitting hair and get any of them, as they're all more than adequate for the job?
Regards,
n.

 

[lucid]

JBL Control 1 - £59/pr new.

As you've already sussed out, the power specs on the Panasonic are (ahem) questionable. Pretty much every manufacturer of small shelf systems does the same because consumers don't know how to sort the wheat from the chaff, and so in the absence of technical knowledge the typical buyer just looks at numbers; and bigger numbers are better, right? (Regardless of how they're actually cooked up )

That Panasonic sucks a maximum of 44 Watts of power from the wall socket. A Watt is a Watt is a Watt, whether it's mains power consumed or power drawn by a speaker. The system has lots of gizmos and doodads to power up, so lets say 20% of that 44W goes to powering the toys. That leaves us 33W to power the amplifier stage that supplies current to the speakers. It'll be a switch-mode amp, so lower cost / higher efficiency than a proper separates amp with a Class A/B output, but it won't be the highest efficiency SM amp, so let's say it's 70%, which is still pretty reasonable. 70% of 33 gives us 23 Watts. Divide that by two, and we have around 12W per channel to play with. It doesn't sound like a lot, but it's enough to make a decent level of sound loud enough to annoy you down stairs

The trick now is to make the best use of that available power.

There are lots of perfectly decent, small, low-/lowish-cost speakers. You've picked out some of the usual suspects already. One thing nearly all small bookshelf speakers have in common is they're generally quite low in sensitivity. This is measured in deciBels per Watt per Metre (dB/W/m), but often shortened to dB/W. 84-87 dB/W is about the range for small bookshelf speakers generally. The JBLs are 89dB/W. A difference of 3dB means that the amp is working only half as hard to drive the JBLs as say the Mordaunt Short M10 for the same volume level. This won't make it sound twice as loud; you need 10x the power level to make a perceived difference of double the loudness. But it does mean that the amp isn't working as hard (a good thing sonically as well as for the leccy bill) and that means there's a bit more oomph on tap for dynamics as well as delaying the onset of distortion that comes when an amp is trying too hard.

The JBLs look a bit like PA speakers which is kind of cool if you're a kid. They have metal grills which is kind of cool if you're a dad looking at the prospect of forking out for another set of speakers after the oops,-I-accidentally-shoved-something-through-the-fabric-grill-cloth-and-wrecked-a-driver incident. The cabinets are polypropylene or ABS-type rugged plastic which means that they'll survive being dropped far better than the typical vinyl-covered MDF box of a regular speaker. They're actually pretty rugged then. That's because they were designed for studio and on-hire use where they'd likely be moved/knocked/dropped on a fairly frequent basis.

The sound quality is great too. Have a read of some of the reviews.

If there's a weakness with Control 1s it's that there isn't a tonne of bass. There's enough, but some of the bigger speakers dig a bit deeper.

 

[SupraWez]

I have a set of the JBL Control 1, paired with a Denon mini unit and an active sub.

Thumping setup for music and movies

 

[Naltar]

Thank you very much for your help and explaining patiently a few matters which are, most probably, well below the "basics" on this forum. You shared generally unfavourable view about Panasonic, more about their business philosophy / strategy than about this specific mini-system, I guess. I'm not contesting that, presumably there's a reason they never stepped out and up from their niche. However, given your reservations about their... imbalance between what really matters (sound quality) and the "gizmos", how did they manage to come up with a pair of speakers that match their own system, i.e. 3-way speakers with a tweeter, etc? Sure, you might quip - "poorly", but I suspect that, to an untrained ear, the sound of matching speakers is "impressive". Is it "impressive" because the bar for an average user AD 2020 is set so low, i.e. usually mobile phone mono speaker, or 30 quid bluetooth earphones at best, etc.), so practically anything above that quality becomes, in our ears, "hifi sound"? This is actually off-topic, and also, irrelevant in this sense that I don't have those speakers, and I won't be able to get them anyway, just... musing.
I have now looked at JBL Control 1, reviews are certainly very solid. Accidentally, you mentioned bass might be underperforming, it appears they've addressed it, to some degree, with a "pro" version of this speaker, though I must say, I'm immediately suspect of any product that play this cheap, "pro" card, but I guess, simplest marketing tricks bring largest audience, and sales, regardless of actual quality. I personally don't like the way the speakers look, but I'm an old, boxy fart, and well past 11 yrs old so... no problem here. Certainly, impact resistance (grills and whole box) is going to be welcome, although I don't think there's more risk than a shove off a table. That said, teens love to surprise their parents in all unimaginable ways so... can't wait. The "pro" costs considerably more, around double of "standard/regular", and 150W is a serious overkill (and the micro system has some extra bass / treble controls). In any case, I still have a few months to look around, it's likely that the economic impact of the current... situation, will flood all markets with all kinds of unwanted "goods".
Once again, thanks for this advice (and gentle tone!).
Regards,
n.

 

[lucid]

Thank you very much for your help and explaining patiently a few matters which are, most probably, well below the "basics" on this forum. You shared generally unfavourable view about Panasonic, more about their business philosophy / strategy than about this specific mini-system, I guess. I'm not contesting that, presumably there's a reason they never stepped out and up from their niche.

You're welcome.

Re: "unfavourable view about Panasonic" - you may be reading too much in to what was written. I don't have a down on Panasonic, or Sony, or LG or Samsung or any of the brands making these kinds of shelf systems. Their business philosophy is (probably) to make consumer goods that the market will buy, and in the process secure jobs, profits and a favourable market position for the brand. A large part of whether a brand succeeds or fails at this is down to consumer reception. That is to say, does the consumer understand what they are buying enough to make a technical assessment.

In most cases, for High Street retail sales and increasingly for web sales, the answer is no. Typically, end-consumers are more interested in features and price rather than quality, per se. In technical terms, it's often enough that they feel reassured that the system they're buying has bigger numbers than the competing models. 120W RMS is a bigger number than 110W RMS, but what RMS means is either unknown or not considered important. 120 is more than 110, and for many, that's enough.

What a lot of this comes down to is how a product is sold.

Back when I was in retail in the 1980s, people still bought gear simply by looking at an edge-of-shelf label and the price, so there was still an arms race to have "the best" numbers. But they could also buy from independent retailers and staff with a bit more knowledge in department stores; so there was a chance that someone would be on hand who might be able to explain that despite what the numbers seem to say, brand A really was a better choice than brand B for this or that model of stereo. That's largely gone now.

In relative terms, consumer electronics are cheaper than they've ever been. They're almost disposable. The retail scene has changed too. What this means is that for many, their only source of information is what's written on the sales page unless they seek out more technical forums such as this or buy from the few remaining bricks & mortar retailers where someone bothers to learn a bit rather than just reading the shelf label with the customer.

As for Panasonic's niche, audio was never a Panasonic-brand key area. That's what the sister brand - Technics - was for. However, the changes in the market in the 90s/early-00s saw the demise of Technics as the appetite for stack systems vanished and was replaced by demand for home cinema gear and the rise of portable audio on the back of the popularity of MP3. If anything, Panasonic's audio product range grew as the market demand shifted to smaller shelf systems.

Panasonic is playing the same game in small audio products as its peers. You can't really criticise it for that. What we can do here though is look at the specs with a more experience eye and give an honest appraisal.

However, given your reservations about their... imbalance between what really matters (sound quality) and the "gizmos", how did they manage to come up with a pair of speakers that match their own system, i.e. 3-way speakers with a tweeter, etc? Sure, you might quip - "poorly", but I suspect that, to an untrained ear, the sound of matching speakers is "impressive". Is it "impressive" because the bar for an average user AD 2020 is set so low, i.e. usually mobile phone mono speaker, or 30 quid bluetooth earphones at best, etc.), so practically anything above that quality becomes, in our ears, "hifi sound"? This is actually off-topic, and also, irrelevant in this sense that I don't have those speakers, and I won't be able to get them anyway, just... musing.

The speakers are manufactured down to a price point. Back to those numbers and the shelf appeal again, a 3-way system is a bigger number than a 2-way system. If that translates in to more sales, then the extra few Cents it costs in parts and manufacturing is worth it as far as the brand is concerned.

The speakers are made to look good as a #1 priority, and to sound okay for the money. The box material will be much thinner than after-market speakers. It will contain minimal amount of damping material (if any), and little in the way of internal bracing. Kudos though to Panasonic for fitting decent binding posts. I have no idea what the port tuning frequency is on those speakers as there's virtually no spec other than a nominal impedance (3 Ohms), the weight (1.3kg per) and the fact that it's a 3-way design. So there's no frequency range, or sensitivity figures, or crossover points or power rating. That's hardly surprising though as these speakers aren't made available as a stand-alone product, so they aren't going head-to-head with true Hi-Fi speakers. The parts and manufacturing cost is low, but no one is really looking at (or listening to) these in a critical sense, so they're only being compared to other inexpensive shelf system speakers as their yard stick.

How impressive a speaker sounds is pretty subjective.

It's possible to make bass reflex speakers sound much louder than the power they're receiving would achieve from just the driver alone. This is done by tuning the bass port to a high frequency. It messes up the sound balance, but you do get a nice 'loud' frequency hump to create the impression of thumping bass, albeit at a single note frequency.

At the other end of the spectrum, adding a little sparkle by throwing in an extra tweeter is going to make people believe they have detailed speakers. Put the bass and top end together, and you have boom and tizz. Bose have been playing the same game for decades.

What's often missing is the midrange. This is where voices and the timbre of instruments lives. It's much harder to get this right.

Looking more technically at the types of drivers; the combined impedance is 3 Ohms through the crossover, so the drivers are likely to be low Ohms too. With low cost drivers, you'll often find that they hit a compression point much earlier than with better quality units. That's to say that they reach their clean limit quite early, then go in to distortion which rises with volume. We hear this typically as a hardening of the sound.

All-in-all then, a case of you get what you pay for, and as you said, better than a sound bar or phone speaker, but not up to the incredibly-cheap-but-still-Hi-Fi performance of the speakers in at £60-£120 price range.

I have now looked at JBL Control 1, reviews are certainly very solid. Accidentally, you mentioned bass might be underperforming, it appears they've addressed it, to some degree, with a "pro" version of this speaker, though I must say, I'm immediately suspect of any product that play this cheap, "pro" card, but I guess, simplest marketing tricks bring largest audience, and sales, regardless of actual quality.

The Pro version and the standard Control 1 have the same frequency response. They're both 100Hz-18kHz +/-3dB. There's also a -10dB figure for bass extension of 80Hz applicable to both, but quite honestly, that number is nonsense because at -10dB you won't hear any bass at 80Hz, it will be too quiet compared to the sound at 100Hz. Just to be clear then, the Pro doesn't make more bass. It can't unless something changes such as the driver size or cabinet volume.

The Pro does have some differences. They fitted a power limiting circuit. This is responsible for the increase in power handling, but also for a reduction in the sensitivity and a lower impedance too. Neither of those things are useful for your application. Having too much power is the least of your worries. Unlike pro users, you won't be hooking them up to a spare Crown amp at 250W in to 8 Ohm with the risk of blowing up the speakers.

I personally don't like the way the speakers look, but I'm an old, boxy fart, and well past 11 yrs old so... no problem here. Certainly, impact resistance (grills and whole box) is going to be welcome, although I don't think there's more risk than a shove off a table. That said, teens love to surprise their parents in all unimaginable ways so... can't wait. The "pro" costs considerably more, around double of "standard/regular", and 150W is a serious overkill (and the micro system has some extra bass / treble controls). In any case, I still have a few months to look around, it's likely that the economic impact of the current... situation, will flood all markets with all kinds of unwanted "goods".
Once again, thanks for this advice (and gentle tone!).
Regards,

Like you say, looks are a matter of personal choice.

As for the economic situation, I'd take a more cautious view.

Prior to the downturn in 2008, there was a lot of relatively inexpensive gear making its way through stock clearing houses. That's kind of dried up now as marketing managers and production planners are being more careful.

 

[Naltar]

Once again, thank you for your thoughts.
re. Panasonic, well, I do remember Technics well, and I'm looking at one, in constant, if moderate use, since I bought it around 1995. And I do remember that, at one point, Panasonic tried to cross into the field of higher end (well, relatively speaking) consumer hifis, stepping into Technics toes, but only briefly.
I also did my own time in retail, throughout 1990s and a bit after that. Different field, but your observations apply to my market too, so I suppose it was a universal process. From a business point of view, this dumbing down went as planned, i.e. a success, as of today my old retailer's business is still doing well, apparently (around minimum wage and zero hours, what else). But then, I think shoppers no longer hope, never mind expect, knowledgeable and impartial advice you used to get on the shop floor, just like people no longer expect to be able to find their bank branch (online banking at your fingertips, eh?). Actually, lack of reliable product information has become a problem for me whenever I need to buy new stuff (hardly ever now). With shop advice mutated into a few lines of a sales pitch, online "reviews" have gone the same way too and, as you point out, you can't even look up detailed specs to see for yourself, because these are not available either.
p.s. when I mentioned that I expect plenty of 2nd hand or unused stuff to appear online, I meant that this particular JBL speaker, presumably due to the bump-proof design, appears to be used by venues, in conference rooms, probably education institutions, etc. Given the current situation, when this adhoc remote work appears to be good enough for many businesses, it's quite possible the next fad in "cost optimisation", just round the corner, is going to be reduction in usage of office space in general, including various... tools that go with that office environment (on top of businesses going simply bust). Not that I wish that on anyone, been through that a couple of times, did not kill me, but definitely didn't make me stronger. Anyway, off topic.
Regards,
n.