BT Phorm

Kemik

Kemik

Kemik

Soldato
Joined
7 Nov 2005
Posts
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Location
Widnes
Hey,

BT have given the go ahead to wide scale deployment of Phorm. I was just wondering if there was any way of using this to get out of my broadband contract? I don't really fancy my browsing habbits being sold to third parties and I've wanted to switch to Be for a while.

Thanks!
 
gillywibble said:
Got a source?
Click to expand...

BT has concluded its trial of the Phorm online advertising programme and is set to go ahead with its wide-scale deployment.

"The trial has now concluded and achieved its primary objective of testing all the elements necessary for a larger deployment, including the serving of small volumes of targeting advertising," said a BT spokesman.

"Following successful completion of analysis of the trial results and of any changes required for expansion, BT's expectation is to move towards deployment. "
Click to expand...

http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2232681/phorm-trial-ends
 
gillywibble said:
Pretty appalling. Can you opt out?

I presume Adblock plus will take care of it, but even so.
Click to expand...

I found this Q&A on the BBC site which should explain it a bit better.

It sounds like the data is mined at ISP level based on all HTTP traffic and then passed on to Phorm. Phorm then generate ads on participating websites based on your browsing habits. You can opt out via a cookie.

This just sounds like an online version of adware. We shouldn't have to opt out of anything to protect our privacy. We're turning in to the US.
 
Everything is going that way. Companies are lazy and it's up to the consumer to opt out of everything rather than just opting in for what we want.
Mostly due to idiots and that fact that they know that if they bombard them with stuff they'll read it and buy it. I vote we take safety labels off stuff and let the problem solve itself.
 
BT have invested a lot in it and are quite committed to rolling it out. But beware of the positive spin put out by Phorm and their PR shills...

You will have the option to opt-in or not but the big question which remains unawsered is:

Does not opting-in only stop serving you targetting ads: will all your internet activity *still* be processed?

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Forget ad-blockers, 127'ing domains in your hosts files, rabitt's foot and tooth of newt. Nothing* can stop your browsing information from being processed

*setting up your own ssl vpl would help but this is NOT a solution to the problem.

The best thing you can do is to phone them up and say you are going to switch supplier. If everyone who is concerned about this did it, and got their friends and family to do it this kind of invasive technology would never be rolled out.

---

Do not wait for the CPS, the EU or any other private case or judicial review to enforce the laws which currently exist - laws which BT and Phorm have clearly broken.

Email customer services, phone them up, sign the downing street petition. Do not let this country slowly slip into a spy state by apathy. That's what they want to happen.
 
It should be possible to get out of the contract because of a material change to the T&C. Note too that if you had changed your contract in recent months there may or may not be clauses in there which you may have not noticed.... Best to study some of the information on this subject over at badphorm.co.uk and nodpi.org (a https site - of course ;) )

You opt out by not opting in.

The 2008 trials produced an interstitial page which appeared if you were lucky enough to be selected. The page had a BIG GREEN BUTTON asking if you would like to be protected and turn webwise on, whilst a BIG RED BUTTON said no thanks or some other psychological play on words.

Now you may know about what webwise is and what exactly it will mean if you click Yes, but think of your family members.

Is it right that a child who is probably familiar with the totally unrelated BBC 'Webwise' http://www.bbc.co.uk/webwise/ can click the Green is Good button and then turn on spying for the whole family without the bill payers consent?

This is just another example of how they are trying to stealth accept this invasive technology and this is why everyone has to do something about it now before it is too late.

Get your MAC and leave. At the very least register your disapproval with customer services. Sign the petition. If someone asks for your advice about ISPs make sure they know which ones want to use Phorm and tell them exactly what Phorm does.
 
That green button stuff is completely illegal. If a child clicks it then they are not legally allowed to consent even on behalf of the bill payer who does consent. It HAS to be the name on the contract that accepts else the agreement isn't legally binding and any subsequent monitoring is illegal and any prosecution or sanctions based upon that data monitoring would be entrapment as it would be easily argued you were "tricked" into agreement.


The whole thing is very very iffy and i'm sure most of it is borderline legal if indeed legal at all.
 
No doubt about it. What they did in 2006 and 2007 (where there was no 'offer message' - we were spied on without our knowledge let alone our consent) was totally illegal.

The fact that the home office, BERR, the ICO gave the green light for them to go ahead with further trials makes them think they are invincible.
 
BT is my ISP but I have none of their s/ware on my PC & only use Firefox. I concede they can monitor my browsing, but how are they going to offer me the red & green buttons to choose ? I don't go to their pages either as I use Thunderbird for email.
 
The way it works is that any page you read is intercepted and can be changed on the fly.

If one day you visit ocuk you could be presented with a BT invitation page instead. Until you click the Yes / No you will always see that page and will not be able to view anyother site.

If you click the safe, green YES button you will have opted in to webwise; all of what you read and write on regular websites will be monitored so that you can get more targetted ads.

If you click the dangerous, red NO button you will not opt in and will not see targetted ads but your data is still intercepted.

Run ccleaner or clear out your cookies regularily? Well if you do you will start the whole process once again as webwise will not know if you have been offered the welcome page and thus will continue to badger you into a Yes :-) or NO :-( decision

You know, you would think that if you wanted more information about this you would be able to ask on BT support forums?

I mean it is their product (which is in sort of beta mode) and that a good place for discussing this would be BTs own forums right?

Well BT tried to stifle all talk of webwise on their forums.

First they insisted that all questions about webwise were on just one thread - a thread which grew huge and thus put off people reading it. They also deleted instantly any new threads on webwise and offered yellow cards to anyone who posted outside the official thread.

Next they point blank refused to answer any questions leaving customers wondering what the hell was going on. People were asking valid questions about webwise but it all fell on deaf ears.

Next they BANNED anyone who tried to post a new question about webwise.

Next the DELETED the whole thread and anyone who tries to ask about webwise would get a yellow / red card.

The ICO said that if webwise was to be rolled out BT had to a) make the system opt in only (it is still not as only the ads are opt in - your data is still processed), b) BT had to be more transparent with end users - they are not. Try asking them about webwise and you get de-resed :p

---

I was a very happy BT Business Broadband customer from 2001 to March 2007. Never really had any problem with the service and the support was excellent.

But this whole stinking mess made me lose all faith in BT as a reputable company. The way they lied and spinned meant that I had to leave them.

In March earlier this year I got my MAC and left. The process was extremely easy and within a few days (with no interruption to my business) I joined Be.

The speed of my connection increased, my monthly costs went down significantly and I have only ever had to log one support call (queery about static / dynamic).

I can never see a time where I would want to return to BT.
 
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On the point about getting help / info on webwise there is a good thread on the no dpi site here:

https://nodpi.org/forum/index.php/topic,108.0.html

Some of the info shows exactly what happens when you get phormed.

A non phormed user visiting bebo will sort of follow this route:

request.png


But a user which has been phormed (and this would include EVERYONE on that ISP - not just the ones who clicked Yes) would end up with this mess:

webwise-simplified.png
 
I would think this, or something like this is the future for all residential net connections. If you want more speed, fibre, 50mb/s etc, then it would cost a fortune. Schemes like this would lower the monthly costs. BT are doing it now, others will do it soon.

Chances are, if you want to totally opt out, then you'll have to pay more for your connection each month.

ISPs could actually make so much money from this little sideline, they could give you free internet access.
 
That has been tried with 'free internet' in the past. Same happened with phone calls and even free PCs where customers had to received xyz minutes of ads every day.

All of them failed...

Besides, the whole concept of Behavorial targetting internet ads is wrong. Whilst it is an ad executives ultimate deal in the real world it doesn't actually work that well and there are far too many negative sides to it.

Behavorial Targetting may work well with store club cards as the data is used for optimum pricing of goods which a store knows a user purchases.

But behavorial targetting will not work for serving ads 'a user may be interested in'.

Ads / Webpages are already targetted
This already happens at the moment. If I google for Paris Hotels google will return pages on paris hotels AND ads for paris hotels.

If I click on one of the pages (such as a holiday review site) the page will be about paris hotels. Again, on that very page I will see ads for paris hotels.

Now where is the advantage for phorm advertisers here if I am already seeing ads which I am already interested in!

On those pages I do not see ads for ford focuses and I do not see ads for apple strudel recipes... so the ads are already targetted.

Phorm Ads will be displayed AFTER a customer may have already purchased
The way phorm works is that it builds up a profile on a user based on the content he / she has read.

If I am looking for a new digital camera for the wife I will read some camera websites, look for some good models (cameras - not those in front of the lens :D ), possibly post a few questions on message boards, and then check price comparison sites and reviews for a model I would like to buy.

I could do all that this afternoon and then make an online purchase today.

Now the wife comes home from work and uses the PC. She browses unrelated sites but starts seeing ads for Digital Cameras!

My secret present is sussed. She knows I have been looking at digital cameras and can make the assumption that is what I am getting her. So thanks for nothing phorm.

But note too - the ads are being served AFTER I made a purchase. I am not interested in digital camera ads anymore so those which are being served to me are wasted ads. And they will be expensive ads for the retailer too as these are targetted to 'specific customers' of which I am now not.

Ads can be distressing
As already stated behavorial targetting will build up a profile of a user and serve ads based on what they have been reading.

Now imagine a young couple who are trying for a family but have sadly suffered a miscarriage. This can be a distressing time and the internet would be a good resource of information and support. The couple may read mother and baby message boards - self help sections, or articles on how to cope better with the loss etc.

Now the theme of these sites will be babies, toddlers, mums, dads etc.

So what if the behavorial targetting system thinks the users profile is on babies, toddlers, mums, dads? Can you see the extra distress the couple will experience for the next few days as their screens are bombarded with ads for Prams, Nappies and Baby Food?

How Much will BT Make and will Internet be cheaper?
First estimates stated that BT would make around £85 Million a year from running the phorm ad system.

But that was based on an opt-out mechanism where the onus was on the customer to turn the ads off.

Now that they have had to change it to Opt-in, even with their most devious of wording and use of green / red buttons that figure can at best now be a quarter.

So BT could make a net gain of around - being a bit extra generous - £25 million a year.

Work out the maths of how much they could pass that on in savings to customers.

If there are 4 Million BT customers BT could only ever knock off £6 A YEAR to each customer and still have £1 million profit.

So do you think customers will be happy to save 50p a month whilst their privacy is being invaded?

I just hope that those marketeers who dreamt up this nonsense and sold it to the board were the first to be sacked by the board.
 
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