Builder not providing FENSA certificate, payment dispute anticipated - advice please

[Participant]

We had a new french door and windows installed in our kitchen when we had it refitted in March. We clarified with the builder, who also did the kitchen ripping out and prep work, that we'd have FENSA certificates / proof of compliance in relation to the windows.

We owe him a balance of £500 for the glazing, however we're withholding this as he's not provided the relevant paperwork. We're happy with the quality of the installation.

The first time he requested the final balance, we asked him for the certificate. This was not forthcoming, so I phoned the supplier directly, who said that the builder had only bought the glazing from them and had it fitted privately, so they were unable to issue a FENSA certificate or guarantee paperwork as they hadn't contracted directly with us to fit the glazing.

I assume the builder did this to save cash on a private cash in hand job with his fitter.

I made contact with the builder and told him that we needed a FENSA certificate in order to settle the balance. Today we get an invoice on the builder's letter headed paper with warranty period and quoting the FENSA number of the glazing supplier!

When selling a house, which we intend to do imminently, the purchaser's solicitor will request FENSA / building compliance paperwork in relation to the glazing, otherwise they'll probably knock off **** loads of money for its absence.

Therefore I'm withholding the final balance to compensate me for this.

Language and comms is currently cordial, however there's no way I'm paying the builder for the balance until I have a FENSA or LABC certificate in my hands, so I expect that things could get a little less pleasant.

Questions:

1. Am I behaving reasonably?
2. What should I do next?

Thank you!

 

[Diagro]

Your totally in the right.
Builder is a silly sausage

 

[R3X]

Few points I think are important since I have myself been in a similar situation before regarding bad glazers and FENSA.

If the company/person has not delivered on a FENSA certificate they are technically in breach of the contract (if it was agreed upon). It really would help if you have some evidence to say this was part of the contract, maybe an invoice showing fensa logo or reg number etc?

The law it falls under I believe is this one ; Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982

You can email fensa directly and also get more evidence to use against the company/person by emailing fensa and providing the company name and details to see if in fact he is legally registered to provide fensa certification from here:

http://www.fensa.co.uk/asp/certificate.asp

Email them this way you get a written email letter response! Even having confirmation they are not fensa gives you proof.

UK law I believe does state if you feel person or company is in breach you can withhold certain amounts of the final payment, however be aware the other party can counter sue that claim also and possibly at your cost + their cost.

If you do contact the person/company always do it in writing with recorded delivery so you have proof. Check here for templates:
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/template-letters/letters/

Its also worth considering looking at your local Council, they can provide alternative documentation to fensa, at a cost of course.

https://www.labc.co.uk/our-services/find-nearest-local-council-building-control-department

https://www.gov.uk/building-regulations-approval/how-to-apply

I can't recall the cost of the top of my head but someone from your local council has to do a survey and check its passed all safety and standard checks, think it was £200-300 but this could vary with different borough, and its an Building regulations certificate if memory recalls that you need.

Also I would advise to contact http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/ about your issue, they can refer it to the trading standards department who can break down much more info then what I gave and advice better.

As I said my case was slightly different but my glazers claimed to be fensa and were not despite saying verbally twice they are and they also gave me a invoice with fensa logo and reg number which turned out to be fake, many companies/people do this to make money no doubt.

Lucky I fought tooth and nail for 6 months and got a certass certificate which is similar to fensa.

In your case not sure, a fensa cert is the better well known cert but maybe an alternative like certass or an LABC cert may do the trick.

I would contact citizensadvice who are connected to trading standards for now and see where you can go from there, many of the points they gave to me are similar to the ones I gave above, however be aware trading standards (law) do report fraud or people saying fensa when they are not to the authorities, sadly the police or trading standards are useless, they won't action the company/person unless 50+ complaints are made!

 

[talkshowhost]

You can check online I believe at fensa.co.uk if the certificate is available. You can also reorder the proper cert if needed although they should clearly give this to you.

EDIT - Much better post above!

 

[divuk83]

We had a new door fitted in our old house and didn't really know about FENSA at the time. When selling the house a few years later we were told that we could pay £66 for an indemnity to cover the lack of certificate. Thankfully we were able to contact the fitter and he was able to issue us with a certificate as he had forgotten and we had not known to ask! Not a massive sum of money, but it would have been annoying to pay for something like that when there was no need, it also adds the the many niggly things that slow down a house sale.

You will deffo need a FENSA cert for a french door, but for doors with less than a certain percentage of glass (check the FENSA website) you don't need one.

Dave

 

[covenantuk]

On this subject - I'd never even heard of them, but is there an equivalent organisation to FENSA in Scotland?

 

[R.O.S.S.I]

Hmmmm, interesting, we had some work done on our house as part of a renovation which included the fitting of a french door to the rear of the property. Can't recall ever seeing a FENSA certificate though.

 

[the_r_sole]

On this subject - I'd never even heard of them, but is there an equivalent organisation to FENSA in Scotland?

no, our building standards are more demanding than the English regs - FENSA certificates are as much use as a 10 year guarantee anyway (i.e. no use whatsoever)
There are various "competent installer" schemes but there isn't an industry standard

 

[Dandle]

Fensa isnt to do with the install but that the windows doors meet a certain standard. We had the fensa cert. numbers on the Rockdoor we had delivered before it was even fitted.

On our last house the window fitted nearly knocker the top of the bay window out and left it in a right state. I contacted fensa to complain about them and they weremt even bothered with the instal. Just get the indemnity insurance and that will cover you for all sorts of things.

 

[the_r_sole]

Fensa isnt to do with the install but that the windows doors meet a certain standard. We had the fensa cert. numbers on the Rockdoor we had delivered before it was even fitted.

On our last house the window fitted nearly knocker the top of the bay window out and left it in a right state. I contacted fensa to complain about them and they weremt even bothered with the instal. Just get the indemnity insurance and that will cover you for all sorts of things.

yeah, it's meant to be some kind of competent person scheme - but it's self certifying! I think there is some additional scheme which covers non-building reg issues but that's another acronym.
not sure why lenders get so caught up in fensa and nhbc guarantees when they are completely worthless

 

[R.O.S.S.I]

So if it is just to cover the quality of the products rather than the install could you say contact the manufacturer and ask them for a FENSA cert (I bought direct from a local manufacturer of them)?

Dont mean to hijack the thread - our overall building works was signed off by building control and the installation of the door was listed as an aspect of the work.

 

[the_r_sole]

So if it is just to cover the quality of the products rather than the install could you say contact the manufacturer and ask them for a FENSA cert (I bought direct from a local manufacturer of them)?

Dont mean to hijack the thread - our overall building works was signed off by building control and the installation of the door was listed as an aspect of the work.

No, it's the installer that is registered with fensa and the certificate is supposed to ensure that the installed windows meet the current building regs - if you have yours signed off by building control that is more valuable than the fensa certificate as it means the local authority have confirmed compliance rather than a self certifying tradesman

 

[Amp34]

It's sounds like it's getting to the point where you can't even install your own windows any more?

 

[Pug]

whilst you are technically in the right, i wouldn't worry about not having a FENSA cert.

When we sold our house we needed a FENSA cert of r our conservatory (we didn't have it installed). In the end we paid an indemnity poilcy against the fensa ceret (insurance policy effectively) which came to about £10. Sale went through fine.

 

[the_r_sole]

It's sounds like it's getting to the point where you can't even install your own windows any more?

Course you can, it's just solicitors who don't understand the building regulations that make you waste money when selling a house by insisting on pointless paperwork or insurance policies

 

[Participant]

Thanks all, especially R3X for an excellent response. To clarify some points:

- There was no contract for the works, just a quote and an agreement to proceed as part of the wider kitchen installation.
- The builder sent through an invoice on letter headed paper of his building company, quoting the FENSA number of a DIFFERENT company.
- We explicitly asked the builder before we agreed to proceed whether or not we'd receive proof of FENSA compliance, as when we sold our last house, the purchaser's solicitors kicked up a stink due to lack of certificate. The builder assured us that all paperwork would be issued and that everything would be compliant.
- Getting an indemnity certificate is a very helpful suggestion to mitigate the problem in a property sale, but is not an acceptable solution from my point of view, when we paid for a FENSA-compliant installation. Hoping the purchaser accepts cheap indemnity insurance places extra risk on us in the sale.
- On the FENSA website, it states:

When selling your property, your purchaser's solicitors will ask for evidence that any replacement glazing installed since April 2002 complies with the Building Regulations. There are currently two ways to prove compliance:-

- A certificate showing that the work has been done by an installer who is registered with FENSA or a similar body.
- A certificate from the Local Authority Building Control stating that the installation has been approved under the Building Regulations.

- "certass certificate" - never heard of these. Will investigate.
- Will happily use the threat of 'passing off' FENSA registration against these builders. He's perfectly pleasant if a bit old school, but I know he's got it in him to play hardball if he needs to.

Thanks again. Will post back outcome (which will probably be me bending over and paying up!).

 

[R3X]

The quote could be seen as a contract I think, but maybe trading standards at CAB could verify this or someone else on here?

When I did my windows all I got was a quote with the company letter head and they also provided a fake fensa registration number, even the company registered number was fake, and that owner was another bloke from 3 years ago.

You can check here if the companies/persons legit and should be trading even:

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/companies-house

Its just small things like that which can make the difference or you can use it against the other person, its not your fault after all if that makes sense.

Yeah a fensa cert is the best one, or the higher branded recognizable certification where as certass does similar also its just one of the similar body regulations that's all, if I recall right my glazers had to get it signed off by the local council too so I think it may have gone the way of LABC. This info could be false though since my glazers were just plain fake!

http://www.certass.co.uk/

Really I have not thought about it since and guess we are lucky in some ways we can get other bodies or government to issue a similar doc. Anyway good luck I know its a royal headache.

 

[Johno please?]

yeah, it's meant to be some kind of competent person scheme - but it's self certifying! I think there is some additional scheme which covers non-building reg issues but that's another acronym.
not sure why lenders get so caught up in fensa and nhbc guarantees when they are completely worthless

Yep, Fensa and Certass are non sense, its an utter racket.

A bit like the DGCOS, it makes a mockery of these things when you see a member turn up on watchdog for ripping people off.

 

[LeeUK]

Local glazing company always prints FENSA logo on their local newspaper adverts. I never received a certificate when I had a new UPVC door fitted, nor did friends and family who have used the same company.

But do people really demand to see them when you sell a property? I suppose if the buyer is really arsey about but I expect most solicitors won't even ask.

 

[#Chri5#]

Local glazing company always prints FENSA logo on their local newspaper adverts. I never received a certificate when I had a new UPVC door fitted, nor did friends and family who have used the same company.

But do people really demand to see them when you sell a property? I suppose if the buyer is really arsey about but I expect most solicitors won't even ask.

IIRC, the Law Society Questionaire we had to complete when selling had a specific section on this topic.

We didn't have any FENSA cert's for any windows (installed just after FENSA arrived years ago). We duly took the indemnity insurance via our solicitors and AFAIK, it was a total non-issue.

Somebody like Skillmister is probably better placed to comment but I think "Hoping the purchaser accepts cheap indemnity insurance places extra risk on us in the sale." is getting a bit carried away.