Building a Gate

[Martynt74]

Our house has 2 gates at the moment. Both are "open" and don't really give much privacy. This is annoying as we get lots of dog walkers going down the private lane who can see into our garden and also riles up my dogs who spot someone and go legging it over to the gate to try and say hello.

It's been ~12 months now since my wife has been asking for new gates and is now threatening to pay someone to come and do it.....So i need to actually get on with making them.

One gate goes over a fairly narrow "Drive" and the span is around 3m. The plan is to change this to a double gate which is hinged at each side. The other gate is at the front and whilst it's fine as it is, it makes sense for them to match.

So 3 gates needed

2 x 155cm x 140cm gates for the drive

1 x 170cm x 130cm gate for the front path

My initial plan was to build a frame using Mortice and Tenons using 3" x 3" posts and then rebate out a grove to fit 5" x 7/8" T&G boards inside and brace using some 4" x 1". I thought this would look decent as the T&G boards would be recessed with a lip and so should look quite nice.

I've just been speaking to a local timber place who make gates to order, who said they use 4x2 as the outer frame and then 5" x 5/8" T&G and brace using 4" x 1.5". This confused me a bit as surely the combination of T&G and brace is too thick for the frame.

Therefore my questions are

1 - Is 3" x 3" too thick for the frame and should i use either 3x2 or 4x2?

2 - Do i actually need to brace the gate if i'm going to be recessing the T&G parts into the frame and given that the gates themselves aren't huge?

3 - The plan is to use PSE Redwood as whilst i'd love to use Cedar it's not very easy to get hold of and presumably more expensive. What is recommended to treat it? I'm not sure my wife wants to paint them so something as a light stain is needed i reckon. Would prefer not to have to re-do it too often if possible. (Will be doing a dry fit and then applying the stain to each piece so should get good coverage in the grooves)

4 - Am i stupid to hope that a cheap Aldi table saw will be able to cut my Dados without the fence moving all over the place (Haven't used it yet but bought it cheap)

 

[Martynt74]

Yeah, i've been doing that.

I'm after something like this

https://www.woodworkersuk.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/curved-top-driveway-gates-large.jpg

https://www.woodworkersuk.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/curved-headed-driveway-gates-rear.jpg

** Do Not Hotlink images **


From reading their page, it looks like they use a 3" frame, with 1" T&G boards and then 2" bracing. Interestingly they seem to leave the bottom of the boards exposed to allow for expansion. I would've put the bottom rail right at the bottom but might just copy their design.

Also will probably just make them square topped because i don't know if i have the patience to curve the top. Or the skills to do it without a bandsaw!

 

[Martynt74]

Lay in bed last night and realised i've given the timber yard the wrong size for the T&G boards and said 4" instead of 5". Praying they've not cut them as i've ordered 35 of them!

 

[Martynt74]

What tools do you have at yours disposal? I can give you any advice you need to make the gate. Bottom rail sits higher so the stile has some strength when you drive wedges into the tenon. It's also for trimming the bottom of the gate so you're not cutting thru a rail

Have got most tools. No idea how to use half of them though (Got a cordless router coming today along with a biscuit cutting bit, then have table saw, mitre saw, circular saw, jigsaw, drill, impact driver, plane and various sanders). Was contemplating buying a biscuit cutter. Have just ordered a mortice marking gauge too after discovering my marking gauge only has 1 pin and i've no idea what use that is!


The wood is here. My mistake on the length of the T&G cost me £77 As i had to order 100ft of new boards. Wood is bloody expensive!

Also got my shed tidied and given myself a decent workspace

And like a real professional i've hung all my clamps up in a line rather than having them shoved in a box on the floor below!

On to the Gate.

My plan is to not use full length tenons. Partly because i'm not 100% confident in my ability to not **** it up, so by doing them at 2/3's i give myself a bit of wiggle room. I figure it should still give sufficient strength.

I've gone away from a curved top because

A - I don't have a band saw
B - It'd take a lot more work and i think i have enough to do. I also have lots of other jobs to do so trying to avoid this taking weeks!

Here is my current plan. Hopefully there aren't any glaring errors i've made which will cause issues.

The Stiles are 75x75 posts, cut at the top into a slant. Just feels it finishes it slightly

The Grey top rail is 150x75. This will fix into the stiles using a 45mm tenon

The brown bits are all 75x38. The plan being to have these sit flush with the rear edge of the stiles. The boards will then fit onto them and i'll be left with a small ledge on the front side of around 10mm (68-38-19). I'm not 100% sure how i'l going to fix these. I currently have the below 3 ideas. All with pros/cons

• Use a lap joint into the stiles for the middle and bottom rail. Then use biscuits/pocket holes for the diagonal braces.
• Use Pocket holes to fix it all. All holes will then be covered by the T&G boards
• Use tenons to fix the middle and bottom rail. Then use biscuits/pocket holes for the diagonal braces. This is an option but might wait and see how well i do with the tenons on the top rail first. Would be the most time cost.

What i also haven't full decided on is whether to just cut a rebate into the Stiles/Top rail and sit the T&G boards in that (easy option) or whether to cut the dado in and full slot the boards in. This would be a little extra work and give more room for mistakes but it would help on the expansion side i think providing it's not too tight.

All the horizontal edges will have a slight chamfer just to allow for water run off.


Questions

• I'm not 100% sure whether i'll need the middle horizontal brace or not. The gates aren't too high (One is 1600mm and the other at 1300mm).
• Any suggestions for protecting the wood. I plan to coat everything prior to assembly to ensure good coverage. Not decided on a finish yet. If i went for a clear protective coat, would the wood still "age"
• What's the best way for fixing the T&G boards to the frame? Should i use pins (Have a cheap nailgun) or should i use screws?
• Whilst i'm going to coat all the wood. Should i be putting any kind of sealant along any joins to prevent water ingress or just leave it? I'm thinking between the braces and the T&G boards and where the T&G boards meet the frame.
• Any suggestions on fixings? The single gate i can re-use the existing hinge. But the double gate currently only has a single gate so will need new hinges. I figure the gates are going to weigh a lot (not sure how i'll manouvre them on my own!) so will need something heavy duty.
• This is purely cosmetic. On the single gate the plan is to cut the top rail into a ^ shape. For the double gates. Would you cut each gate into a ^or do the left one like / and the right one like \ so that when they meet in the middle they look like a single ^ (Hope that makes sense)
• Sure there'll be others!

 

[Martynt74]

Bugger, had already cut the top rail for one piece to factor in the stubbed tenon so won't be long enough to do as a through tenon. Might stick it out on a single gate and if things start to sag i can always strip it down and replace the top rail. Then use wedged tenons on the other gates. I had read not to use draw bore pins just because if they shrink they can allow water to get in. If you think they'd be ok, i could always use on my stubbed tenon to give some further support.

@famas Given i don't have anywhere near your level of skill. Would you suggest any kind of sealant for filling gaps where things aren't a completely precise fit. I'm thinking of the face boards into the groves in the stiles and then the bottom rails into the stils.

Will pin the face boards into place. Would you pin each board together or just pin the outer boards into the stiles/rails?

I was going to use standard Gorilla glue as i have half a bottle knocking around at home. Would it do the job as i know it's PVA based, or do i need to be thinking of something better?

 

[Martynt74]

Will order some of that then. Amazon have it on prime. Would 220g be sufficient? Based on 3 gates looking like the above. And is it this stuff?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cascamite-...18&hvtargid=pla-422148041033&psc=1&th=1&psc=1


Anything you categorise as an "advanced technique" i'm staying well clear of

Excellent, will add a draw bore in. I presume that all dowels are created equally? Based on a 45mm length tenon. Would you suggest a 9mm or 12mm dowel like this?

https://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-Pin...ZpBNCbZpEzNXj8IorL8aAmuMEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds


Need to check with the wife about the finish. Painted would be better for me as it gives me the ability to hide any mistakes and imperfections. I think a clear stain would be preferable though so i think the end finish will ultimately depend on how good a job i do!

 

[Martynt74]

Wickes do this hardwood (presume beech?) 12mm dowel so i'll try and pick that up. Otherwise B&Q do a 8mm beech dowel which is easier to get to.

Yeah boards are T&G and that's the plan (slide from the bottom). Also keep reminding myself to plan the boards so i cut each end equally rather than just having a full board on the left and a thin one on the right!

Will watch some Youtubes on the bore holes just to refresh my memory. I used them when i built a small staircase in a bench joinery class years ago (along with my first and only attempt at M&T joints).

 

[Martynt74]

Cheers guys

It's come at a slightly ropey time as i've been meaning to build a proper workbench for a while but not got round to it. Would've preferred to have that setup so i had something sturdy to work on. Especially for chisel work. I'm currently using folding tables and anything involving a hammer or hand plane ends up wobbling all over the place

Hoping that the use of power tools will help to some degree.

 

[Martynt74]

Yeah, i'll be using power tools so i can mess things up faster

Made a start on this on Saturday. The cordless Ryobi router is alright. However it lacks power and some elements of control. It might be good for chamfers etc but not really suitable for cutting the mortices/tenons. That meant i had to fix my old router which i cut through the power cord around 18 months ago. This is safe right

Also realised a slight flaw in my plans. There is no bloomin way i could use my table saw for cutting the tenons, given that my main top rail is a 6ft long piece of 6x3. Hence fixing the above router.

Also very glad i now have a shed and don't just have to do things outside. Means i don't have to clean up all this saw dust and have the issue of it blowing everywhere!

Also roughly cut the top rail into shape. Will use the belt sander i think to finish it off and give it a slight slant to allow for water runoff

It fits!

My only issue however is that the mortice needs to be 45mm deep and with my 1/4" router bits i can't get that deep. At most i can get around 40mm. Hence the gap you can see. Might pick up a 1/2" plunge router to replace mine. That way i can use much bigger bits. I've seen Trend do a "long reach" bit but that's £22 and feels like it'd make more sense to just spend the extra for a 1/2" router.

Ironically, had i decided to use a through tenon i could've just router through from the other side and had no issue

 

[Martynt74]

Just used a router and a straight bit for the tenons, taking multiple passes. I didn't use the parallel guide on the first one so i'm hoping the shoulder fit isn't too bad. Otherwise i might have to redo it.

Also damn timber yards and their measurements. I asked for some 3 x 1 3/4 which i assumed would be planed down to around 70mm x 38mm. Nope it's 70mm x 44mm which is exactly 1 3/4. All i can think is they've accidentally given me 3x2 instead.

Also annoying is that i went round to my new neighbours to borrow a hedge trimmer and in their shed they had loads of planed redwood including some long lengths of 6x3. The previous owner had left it in there. Wouldn't be as bad but before moving out he'd asked me if i wanted some old wood for the fire and i said no as i assumed it was just rough offcuts

 

[Martynt74]

Considered that. But given @famas comments about weakness of a stubbed tenon in the first place I didn’t think it’d be a good idea to cut it shorter.

 

[Martynt74]

Will just do it manually then! Hoping to get a few hours on it tonight. As you can tell this will be a very slow drawn out process. My list of jobs at the moment is huge and most at the minute is centred around tidying the garden and other bits for a bbq at the weekend.

Bought some cramp headshells. Would be handy to have some 6ft sash clamps which i don't own and they're fairly pricey. Buying the headshells seem great given i can just use lengths of 2x1 to make whatever size clamp i want. They say they fit 25mm width wood, but upon measuring the opening it's 32mm so will need to rip some 2x1/1/2 down to get a decent fit.

 

[Martynt74]

Have gone for a lap joint (kind of) on the middle and bottom rail. I should've used a half lap joint as then there'd have been extra strength from the rail pushing into the stile. Instead i didn't think and just went through the stile. I'm going to use coach bolts to hold them together. Because rails are offset towards the back i wasn't sure of the strength of using a tenon as it's usually done in thirds. We'll see if this actually holds things. They've worked out pretty tight fitted but i do have some concerns if the wood starts contracting. In hindsight i wish i'd done a dovetailed lap joint.

Would dowels work as well as coach bolts? They'd be a slightly more attractive option.

I accept it's not the "proper" way to do it but i'm hoping for the best

The only one where i've made the gap slighly too wide in the stiles is the middle one on the right

 

[Martynt74]

Oooh, will check that out. Thanks

It's been slow process so far. For multiple reasons

1 - I've too many hobbies to try and squeeze into a life that involves family so balancing hobbies, DIY, work and family time is never easy!
2 - I'm slow
3 - I keep doing things and then questioning if they're right and working out how i can do something better on the double set of gates. The list is growing!

Here it is as it currently stands.

The main issue is that i have no middle rail because i only planned on a top and bottom rail for this gate with a diagonal brace. This changed so i need to buy another length of wood. The other issue is the shoulders are wonky on my tenons which is disappointing. I think i'll tidy them up and lose 2-3mm from the length of the gate rather than leave them as they are.

From the fit above everything is coming in nicely square which is a bonus! Today i'll pick up the extra wood for the middle rail and then tonight will be routing out the rebate for the boards.

 

[Martynt74]

Well that was annoying. Went to Wickes for some dowel and saw some 15mm hardwood dowel and thought sounds great. Got home and realised i didn't have a 15mm drill bit. Since i've already drilled the 12mm holes i figured the easiest solution is to just go back and exchange it for 12mm after all. A nice waste of time!

The frame is glued into place now and i'm happy with it being square. Over the 6 foot diagonal it's out by 2mm. I can live with that! Shoulders on the tenons are cleaner too and the fit on the rails is tight.

Now onto the issues and questions!

The rail had a crack in it and i knocked it which caused the edge to chip off. Most is hidden but i'll need to fill this is. Can i just mix some cascamite with sawdust to make a filler and pack it into the hole?

Also on these slight gaps on my joins. Is it worth trying to pack some glue/filler in or just let some woodstain drip in and fill it up?

Also annoyingly i forgot to protect each piece before assembly, hopefully i don't leave any exposed gaps. I've also been categorically told that my wife doesn't want a painted gate so woodstain it is!

 

[Martynt74]

Also never realised how expensive woodstain is! Particularly i'm trying to avoid generic cheap stuff.

EDIT - Ignore that. Think i've convinced myself a base coat and top coat is the best option rather than cheaping out and trying to just use one product. So have ordered

Sikkens CETOL HLS Plus for the base coat and Sikkens Cetol Filter 7 Plus for the top coat. Both in Light Oak. I know darker would've been better but my wifes always liked lighter colours.

Paint would've been so much cheaper

 

[Martynt74]

I thought that about the stain. Most of the gaps are fairly small. It was just filling that bit where it's broken off. I did see that Sikkens do an external wood filler but seems daft buying something for the small amount i need.

I've also found a split forming on the bottom of one stile. Going to have to pull that off and re-glue it on. Hopefully it'll go back alright. Think it's been knocked because maneuvering the gate now it's assembled has been tricky in a fairly small work area!

Good to know about the Sikkens, think it cost £95 for the 2 products! We'd prefer more of a matt/satin finish so i might just use the HLS plus and see how it looks after 2 coats and how far the tub will go. If i can get a third coat out of the tub i'll use that and send the Filter 7 back. If it looks like it won't make it i'll use the Filter 7.

Also realised i'll need new hinges. The existing hinges (bottom one anyway) grip around the stile. Because this will be boarded there isn't going to be the space to do so. Because i didn't think and have made the new gate the same size, i'll need a new hinge which still holds the gate away from the post rather than a more traditional hinge.

Any good websites for fixings? Given it's an old house it might be nice to have something a little more traditional.


Also looking at that picture, i'm fairly sure my next job is going to be painting the fence as it's going to look dark with a light oak stain and dark brown fencing i HATE painting.

 

[Martynt74]

Yeah, will probably do that. Might even have the bit that broke off knocking around in the piles of dust on the floor.

Still slow progress, a boozy weekend meant nothing got done and i had lent my orbital sander out and only managed to get it back on Tuesday. Should get the smaller gate done this weekend. Have been giving the T&G boards a coat of stain prior to assembly just so i can get into the bits i can't see when it's together.

Then should just be a case of sand it up, add the boards and then fit the bracing. I watched this video that seems to suggest lots of glue between the T&G boards and any rails/bracing, yet it was suggested above not to do that. What're the pro's/cons here?

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTfbUm0srfo)

Why not get a blacksmith to knock you something up.
Your making a nice gate, and the character of the house lends itself to something clearly hand made rather than a mass produced hinge?

It's a good thought, i did look a while back but struggled to see anything. I think i definitely need a hinge with a hook and eye. Whilst the gate in the above pic would be fine with a traditional hinge (ignoring the size of the gap), on the double gates there is a small 2ft wall on each side which blocks the fence posts. As such it needs to fit onto the inside edge of the posts. This seems to leave me with only a strap hinge.



Most seem to be galvenised steel like the one i already have. Is there a way to paint them black? I tried googling but saw lots of comments on how the galvanised finish would resist the paint.

 

[Martynt74]

Just to show the existing posts and get the best ideas for hinges. Here are the posts on either side.

We'll probably only really use the gate on the wall side as it's only really used for people rather than vehicles.

 

[Martynt74]

Gate 1 is done (just needs a final coat of stain)

Was dry fitting the boards to check they fit

They didn't! I've measured and re-measured this about 5 times!

Took all the boards out so i could cut off an equal amount from both sides. Put them back in and now it was too short. Presumably i'd left some gaps in the T&G the first time around and then as the gaps were a bit more open the second time they slotted together easier. I ended up getting a 90cm ruler i have which is 1mm and using that as a packer. Putting each board in and nailing it into place and then it all worked nicely.

And it's done. Not a screw in sight so i'm pretty happy. Definitely things i can improve on for the other 2 gates. Mainly, if you're using 12mm dowel. Don't switch over to a 10mm drill bit one day and forget. Drill the hole and then wonder why your dowels keep snapping in half when you're hammering them in!

There's also some pooling of stain along edges where it's ran and i've not caught it. Am hoping i can tidy that up.