Building Control Advice

markwilliams82

markwilliams82

markwilliams82

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Birmingham
I'm coming to the end of converting our cellar into a living room, just need the walls boarded and plastered.

However I'm having issues with the building controller for our area (Redditch). I've given him two ideas for the coal chute / light well where he requires some kind of steps to allow for an emergency exit in case there was a fire upstairs.

The company who converted my cellar suggested I incorporate a step(s) into the coal chute wall as per below image. And it was also a suggested idea by a senior building controller for Worcester, who said he'd accept the idea if it was put forward to him.




However the building controller I'm dealing with is refusing the idea and is insisting I excavate more of my front garden to accommodate a full stair case with hand rails either side. Bearing in mind my house is a Victorian mid terrace house with a very small front garden as it is, i dont' feel his suggestion is realistic as the stairs would take up the majority of front garden available and would come pretty close to the border of our property.

Any advice on how to deal with building control or to resolve this issue would be appreciated
 
but that's the problem I have, Redditch building control is not happy with my suggestion, yet the Worcester building control would be as the controller who suggested the idea to myself and the conversion company said he would pass it. So why would one be happy with it and not the other? Any why would cellar conversions companies advertise this as a solution to the fire escape so openly on their advertising if they know building controls will refuse.

From what I've heard the building controller who has been carrying out my site visits has a reputation in the trade for being a jobs worth and has made previous jobs for them in Redditch 10 times more difficult
 
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Obviously we started off with the bare minimum (as its only 5ft approx from the level area of the coal chute / light well to the surface) by suggesting a step 1/3 of the way up to let the person push up and out with. this wasn't enough.

we've then got the idea we have now of the metal hand rails as per picture above which they've refused and I'm trying to argue my point.

The building controller had an issue with the height of the stairs at the start of the project, he refused blank and wanted us to adjust floor joists etc.. however when the conversion company spoke to his boss he turned around and said it was only a suggestion and it will be OK as it is.

so I'll continue to argue my point for the time being but it may be worth considering some kind of ladder in there. whether it be one which we temporary place in there when escaping or a permanent one like the loft ladder or small metal ladder secured to the brick wall.
 
DiamondMark said:
They wont undermine each other, once you get a **** ruling it makes it hard for a more reasonable one to pass it.
Click to expand...

saying that, when we had an initial problem with head height in one area he kicked off and wanted us to move floor joists etc.
However when I spoke to the conversion company they by passed him and went to his manager and argued the case. They got it resolved and the original building controller came back and said it was only a recommendation and it wouldn't be an issue. So going over him has worked before.

Upon receiving his reply, I sent him an email asking him to explain why he's not accepting this solution when other building controllers would accept, and it was actually a contoller who suggested the idea and why if its such a recommended solution to the fire escape issue in the coal chute that he's refusing. After all the chute in the picture is actually deeper than mine.
 
DiamondMark said:
Thats half your problem there, ignoring his suggestion, i swear these people were bullied in school.

If you are over qualified to be a traffic warden, join building control.
Click to expand...

LOL :D everyone who has met the building controller for the conversion can't stand the bloke. one of those snivelling little weasel characters
 
ok so i've ended today by emailing him to find out what his issue is with my solution. If he can provide me with reasons i can at least work on it.

Currently at the top of the stairs leading from the cellar is a standard door. To the left is standard door into living room and on right is an open arch into kitchen. We're havin a mains powered fire alarm fitted here but because we don't have fire doors cutting rooms off we need the chute to be a fire escape. On his initial visit he did say if i don't do the chute i could fit fire doors between the rooms.
 
thanks, any help would be appreciated. Hopefully tomorrow i'll get an explanation to why he doesn't like the idea that everyone seems to use and recommend. But i think you're right, i'd rather put in doors than go to the expense of excavating the front and put in some stairs which wont keep with the character of the house
 
The fire doors will probably be used as a last resort if I can't resolve the issue with the coal chute. As like you've all said it would be a cheaper alternative to carrying out a large excavation for an exterior stair well.

As I've said, I've asked the building controller who is dealing with my conversion for explanations as to why he can't accept my proposed solution. Hopefully he'll come back to me today with explanations and I can find out whether its just his personal opinion or if the solutions does fail to meet certain regulations. I just find this hard to believe if so many conversion companies use this solution of a cat ladder.

As for the private companies who sign work off, how do you find out about them? I've never heard of any before. I always thought it was down to the building control of the council.

According to the company who did the work and the planning portal website (http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/permission/commonprojects/basements/) basements which are converted don't require planning permission unless significant changes are made although rules are being looked at which might mean future work requires planning permission.

as soon as I get a response today i'll post an update
 
yeah that's true, I've read mixed today. I've emailed other cellar conversion specialists etc to get more opinions and they've all come back and said that you can convert a chute into an escape route as they've done it previously you just need to check with the local BC. Seems silly really, if the company are happy to do it, why are different councils going to react differently to it.

One company has come back with the advice of...involve the controller to make them think it was there idea and they'll be happy

not heard a thing of the bloke today, hopefully i will tomorrow. If not i might have to ring the office and speak to his boss. During the initial visit he did say the chute could be used, because I remember him saying if we didnt use that as an exit we'd need to use fire doors at the top of the stairs to cut off rooms and provide safe exit routes.
 
Where can I find these indepent building controllers?

How does it work with the council though? I mean the council know the work is going ahead so what would happen if an independent controller would accept an idea they wouldnt?

I've got the electrian coming on monday to fit a mains powered fire alarm in the area as required so I want to get something resolved before then so I can make any adjustments to the electricians work if required.
If the BC are insistent I cant use the chute unless i excavate for full stairs, i'll just install fire doors.
 
Definetly, I've just been on the website and found a company of inspectors in Birmingham who I've emailed all my details to so I can see what there opinion is. Wait and see what they say.

I'm hoping to get some kind of update on this tomorrow, even by my BC or by calling his manager to discuss, or from the independent company.

I just can't see why I've got such an issue with putting a cat ladder into a already excavated coal chute, and using an external light of some kind to light up the area when dark and to install a velux window above for H&S and keep security tight

Even more annoying when the BC never mentioned any issues on his initial visit when the chute was discussed, and even on the 2nd visit when the cellar company discussed with him the chute and putting a step in there, no issues were raised then.
 
no real plans on what would be done with the chute, only that it would be excavated and turned into a fire exit as per the plan of work below which was drawn up and submitted by the cellar company


 
I'll have to speak with the cellar conversion company to see if they can confirm, but I do seem to recall the plans were sent in with the building notice form when I sent it in with payment to building control.

if thats the case, i'll mention that tomorrow when I speak with either by BC or his manager.

I do remember his first visit as i was at home for it to show him around, and i showed him the chute and we spoke about it and he told me an alternative if i didnt proceed with the chute would be to install fire doors. obviously he came back for a 2nd visit afterwards but the cellar conversion company were here for that.

thanks for your advice, I'll have a dig through paperwork and call the cellar company to discuss with them if they sent in any plans and to confirm what was said to them during the 2nd visit.
 
mmm fair enough, it all does sound rather grey and dodgy.

I know the cellar conversion and the council emailed me part completed applications to sign and fully complete and i'm 90% sure I sent off the plan of work as well so that i had no issues and they had all relevant paper work (just in case) so not to delay the work and I know i showed the plans to the inspector on his first visit to view.

the window installed is a fire escape window which opens in two ways (tilted part open for ventilation and full open for escape) which is installed in the wall between the room and the chute.

the chute is actually outside of the wall with just a cover over it at the moment until i install a velux window over the chute once the cat ladder is installed (if i get permission) see image below for layout of chute in comparison to the house. the dotted line is the original position of the chute, but the solid line is the position since its excavation

 
yeah, i thought that. i just dont want it open to the elements or to any local chancers who want to try and break in so would rather have security at the top too

I'm going to try the cellar company tomorrow, get all details regarding...would plans of been sent, would they of had any kind of confirmation before starting and what was said about the chute during the visits. then i'll ring the bc manager to try and get some approval and make my point and find out why it wouldnt be acceptable and why if there is a problem it wasn't highlighted earlier when things were first discussed, shown or after the initial visit.
 
I've been reading about the notice and full plan submission, and all the requirements for the full plan submissions seem to of been met as I've read for the full plan way of things the BC will need details on materials used etc which they've requested and has been submitted.

We did think of having the chute as part of the room but from the original plans a window was planned for in there and has recently been installed as the last piece of work from the cellar company

I've got some work to get done this morning, so by the time I get all of that out the way I'll give BC and the cellar company a call about 10am to get all the information and discuss the chute * fingers crossed *
 
Well I've just had my response from BC from the email I sent a couple of days ago asking why they can't accept the solution;

The rationale of our decision is as follows:

1* Your basement conversion requires an alternative means of escape, or alternatively a protected escape route, you have indicated that you will provide the former (approved document B1, clause 2.13)

2* B1, clause 2.8 states “Any window provided for emergency egress purposes… should enable the person escaping to reach a place free from danger from fire”.

3* Clearly this is not possible without the provision of some means of moving from the level of the bottom of the light well to street level.

4* Approved document K gives guidance “for people moving between different levels in or about the building”. We know of no other guidance for this situation which is commonly accepted by building control bodies within Worcestershire or elsewhere.

We are therefore looking for an approved document K compliant solution.


All of this seems quite silly to me and not very clear.
In my understanding;

1* The chute will act as an alternative escape route incase of fire
2* The window is a fire escape window which will allow people access to a ladder/steps which will take people to safety
3* The solution of a cat ladder does enable a method of moving from the bottom of the chute to street level

In the approved document K the only reference to basements I could see was a section regarding guards/barriers around basement access/light wells. This will obviously be ok because of the velux window that will be installed on surface level. This will prevent anyone falling down the light well.

Also when looking in approved document K at the guidance to fixed ladders it states a fixed handrail needs to be present on both sides.

So working on all of this information, there is no need for the chute not to be acceptable if my understanding is correct. If I fit a fixed ladder with hand rails on either side, with a light in there to enable better visibility and install a velux window to provide a guard/barrier to prevent falling. I don't see any issues.

What do you think?
 
well I didnt get back to him this afternoon, I thought I'd leave it the night and get a reply back to him tomorrow.

dodgem - i've searched the regulations and came across what you said about the fixed ladders are only for loft conversions, but it seems there is no definite regulation regarding basements so from my point of view I can't see how they can refuse point blank a viable solution such as a step up or cat ladder.

as for whats been mentioned previously, i've not stated anything about hand rails. might be worth considering though.



LOAM - a ladder like that seems ok. my only worry is that it would take up more room than the bc's recommendation of the alternating tread stair. or am i thinking of it wrong. I worked out today, using the regulation dimensions that to accomodate stairs I'd need the coal chute excavated to a length of approx 1.5metres which would create a rather large opening and mean a large velux window would be required and would put the top of the stairs only a short distance from the edge of our property and public walkway? is that correct or am I working it out wrong based on dimensions of 220m per riser and step and coal chute height of 1.5 metres
 
Never read that part of the regs.

Although I did read a part about people getting used to the alt tread the more they're used! basically saying they're not comfy to use and users need to become used to them, whereas a ladder...everyone knows how to use lol

What the BC said was "We would be looking for something like the alternating tread stair shown in part K" It is tempting to quote the building regs about the alt tread stairs only being used for a loft conversion, and refer to the section about fixed ladders only being used for loft conversion. but its true what you said, he may change his mind on that as well then. although if i get him to confirm on the phone that he wants the alt tread stair, i can refer to the comment and say a fixed ladder is recommended under the same circumstances so surely that will be acceptable too as long as I have hand rails either side.

I had a look on that website and they have some good budget wood kit stairs on there which would be ideal considering the amount it would be used. I could then stain it and it would then look ok. based on the sketches they've got...for a 13 riser set which has a height of 2500mm, it would need an depth of 1460mm. so if I needed a height of 1500mm I'd guess I'd need a depth of approx 750-800mm but I can enquire to confirm
 
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