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Building Regs Rant

Discussion in 'Home and Garden' started by ash_scotland88, Dec 28, 2018.

  1. ash_scotland88

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 1, 2007

    Posts: 5,046

    I can totally understand why they exist, in a way, but find them so limiting!
    Looking at extending and could fit in a downstairs WC off a vestibule/porch (we're going sideways).
    Taking into account some building regs rules we would be able to create the 700x850mm space for the WC, 800x850mm Infront of this for usable space (bigger than what they ask for) and the sink would sit in a narrower part of the room beyond this. Access would be from side into the 800x850space, this means the sink would be behind the door when open.
    Now building regs says the door needs be outwards opening for a wc, which as far as I can tell isn't possible as it then interacts with the front door, second vestibule door and opens into the 900/1000mm wide corridor /vestibule space not allowing enough access.
    But apart the WC itself fills all other space quotes as far as I can tell!

    Just frustrating! We could always lie have it signed off as a cupboard then fit the sanitary ware after sign off, but it's just frustrating they won't allow it.

    This is where someone comes in and tells me otherwise.

    #rantoverfestiveboredom
     
  2. 2004typer

    Gangster

    Joined: Feb 9, 2009

    Posts: 148

    Location: Dukinfield

    On the basis this is an extension as stated, and you are not replacing an existing compliant ground floor W.C. with the one of the size / dimensions listed, Approved Document M will not be applicable, thus your proposal for the W.C. stated should be acceptable.

    The minimum dimensions / standards only apply if you are doing a new build, or as above you were making the existing W.C. provision materially worse / less compliant than the existing provisions.

    Hope this makes sense!
     
  3. ash_scotland88

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 1, 2007

    Posts: 5,046

    Installing a new (only) WC on the ground floor.

    Maybe different in Scotland but I know even recasting stairs we had to take into provision for stair lift/demonstrate how it would work.

    It may be something I have to clear with architect, and run by other half of he likes the layout I'm drawing up in my head.
     
  4. Steeps

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 8, 2003

    Posts: 4,810

    Location: Bedfordshire

    Any chance of uploading some plans? If you're building the wall for the WC would you be allowed to use a pocket door?
     
  5. ash_scotland88

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 1, 2007

    Posts: 5,046

    Found the Scottish regs, they state that it has to be 1100mm Infront of the toilet!

    But also this;

    Additional sanitary facilities need not be provided as part of an extension to, or
    alteration of, a dwelling. However an additional accessible toilet may be needed under
    the circumstances set out in clause 4.2.10, if one does not exist on the entrance level of a
    dwelling.
    If it is intended to install a new sanitary facility on the principal living level or entrance
    storey of a dwelling and there is not already an accessible sanitary facility of that type
    within the dwelling, the first new facility should be in accordance with the guidance given in
    clauses 3.12.3 and 3.12.4.

    Does that mean if our first floor bathroom is accessible then the new WC on ground does not need to conform to accessible standards? This would allow us to use the England/Wales smaller part M dimensions?
     
  6. ash_scotland88

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 1, 2007

    Posts: 5,046

    I'll trust in the morning with more details.
     
  7. Pringle W

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 1, 2008

    Posts: 10,932

    Location: Glebe Park

    Where in Scotland are you. I deal with Angus, Aberdeenshire and occasionally Highlands / Perthshire council.

    An alternative approach may be your friend in this situation. As there are no facilities on the ground floor currently you are improving the situation. The way councils are treating alternative approaches have changed in the past couple of months though as instead of just dealing with them in-house they now go to a central database to maintain consistency throughout the country.

    Putting together a well thought out arguement quoting regs and why they shoulduldnt be fully applied can get you round the regs. The mandatory standards are essentially the only parts you have to adhere to the rest can be discussed.

    Not related example

    E.g accessible ramps. Requires a 1200 X 1200 level platt. But at the top and bottom of a ramp there needs to be a 1500 waiting space so there's a contradiction in the regs !
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
  8. 2004typer

    Gangster

    Joined: Feb 9, 2009

    Posts: 148

    Location: Dukinfield

    Sorry......ignore my post (#2)......didn't realise you were in Scotland (should have been obv. from username!).
     
  9. Pringle W

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 1, 2008

    Posts: 10,932

    Location: Glebe Park

    It is related sort of. There are mentions of if you're fitting a WC then rather than having the 800 X 1100 space in front of the WC you can revert back to the lesser standard of 800 X 750. As you mentioned that's more for a fully compliant bathroom in a new build. His is not .
     
  10. ash_scotland88

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 1, 2007

    Posts: 5,046

    Edinburgh based. Had planning rejected at appljapplic and appeal, I believe it mostly came down to design and their not understanding our area. Our re-submission will already be getting heavy annotated explaining everything we can, more specifically build lines.

    What would you say are mandatory parts?

    Doesn't help I started off quoting England and Wales regulations! As usual Scotland messing it up by insisting on doing it on their owns!
     
  11. Pringle W

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 1, 2008

    Posts: 10,932

    Location: Glebe Park

    Dealt with Edinburgh once or twice and they're hopeless!

    If you've got planning already sorted, can you send me a set of the plans through trust and I can take a look at them. The mandatory standards are the bits in the box at the top of each subsection. The following clauses are only guidance which can be argued to a certain degree.
     
  12. ash_scotland88

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 1, 2007

    Posts: 5,046

    Knew I should have copied what I sent to steed. We have the rejected plans, new ones have not been done yet but I can hopefully describe it.
     
  13. Pringle W

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 1, 2008

    Posts: 10,932

    Location: Glebe Park

    Can you link to the planning reference? Or just trust it if you don't want the world to know where you live so i can take a look at the planning drawings at least? I know building warrant drawings aren't viewable online.
     
  14. Steeps

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 8, 2003

    Posts: 4,810

    Location: Bedfordshire

    I can forward on the details of the email and application to save you re-typing it all.

    Can't see much from the original decision notice but I'm assuming they turned down the original application due to the style of the wood and the window shape not being in keeping with the pebbledashed monstrosities you call your neighbours even though you have a concrete church and a grey clad medical centre just a stones throw away. It's frustrating they insist on accessibility regulations for properties yet anything modern bolted on to a house is considered out of touch. We wanted to do the same with our front extension but settled on matching brick and sloping roof even though we're the only house of this style on the road. Our WC was the old bin store.

    I wouldn't be too happy trying to bolt on the WC taking space from the kitchen especially if you're going to lose the extra space from the angle wall removal. I would be tempted to keep the kitchen layout as it is (but squared off), still do the switch with the stairs but keep the living room wall where it is and build a WC under the stairs. I've not looked deep enough to find any regs for minimum height but it's suggested 2m of height at the front of the pan, the rest should be fine under sloping stairs.

    Around here they refurbished 50 ex-forces houses from an old base for private use, 2up 2down wide terraces. Once the whole estate had been sold off the builders did a door to door and offered to fit a downstairs WC in the under stairs storage area. The plumbing was already in place due to the location of the bathroom and quite a few of the residents took up the offer, they couldn't do it originally because planners were insisting that any downstairs WC had to be large enough to accommodate a shower (for a 2 bed terrace house).
     
  15. ash_scotland88

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 1, 2007

    Posts: 5,046

    Forgot about the living room...
    We're pushing forward with building warrant and works for living room.
    Lounge door is now moving to the big bottom tread and stairs are being recast to make this work. No structural shifts for the wall to be moved anymore. Over all cheaper to do, but now limits what we do with the extension.
    Even the space that's currently under the stairs wouldn't be enough.

    Losing space is the chat to have, but I wanted to make sure my facts are right before bringing it forward. With losing space we'd have a very similar width of kitchen we currently have just a lot longer.
    We'd both love an island/breakfast bar but what I've drafted up as possible layouts don't think it would be achievable without being very tight.
     
  16. ash_scotland88

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 1, 2007

    Posts: 5,046

    Pringle, did you receive a trust? Don't know if I somehow sent a message to myself or its a duplicate.
     
  17. Pringle W

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 1, 2008

    Posts: 10,932

    Location: Glebe Park

    Yeah i got the email. But the link timed out, however I looked at the plans using the reference.

    Been at the football today and now got my photos to sort through but will respond probably tomorrow now cos I'll have highlights to do as well....highlights from a two nil loss :o

    Edit

    There's space standards for a kitchen as well so this may limit your options. 1m in front of the cooker and a 1500square or 1800x1400 ellipse space to manoeuvre in!
     
  18. ash_scotland88

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 1, 2007

    Posts: 5,046

    No worries Pringle, just confused why I only received one copy of trust and it was yours.

    Sketched/rulered it up this afternoon from a print out of plans so scaling is very iffy, can only really take a "circa" measurement of what would be left. Width at narrow point is what we have currently for kitchen width but would only last c1900, long wall would be c4690 and between WC and kitchen door would be c1460 and just deeper than 600, giving different options for units.
    We knew we would never achieve the dream kitchen space, even when angled out and measuring suggests we would only gain 400mm at the very widest ontop of the difficulties of building an angled kitchen and loss of cupboard spaces to pack out walls etc

    It now raises questions if the building regs argument could be made for the WC and even just push the ground floor front out further to 2m which looks like it doesn't come in front of neighbours lines or even further properties that went to the front double storey.
     
  19. Datamonkey

    Soldato

    Joined: Jan 21, 2003

    Posts: 6,624

    Location: Kempston - Bedfordshire

    Just a quick thought, i know nothing about the regs, could you look at going with a sliding into the wall door?
     
  20. ash_scotland88

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 1, 2007

    Posts: 5,046

    If it can be argued regarding dimensions then I think it would have to be a pocket door. I would be against one for noise privacy sake but it's only accessible through the vestibule which will have a "real" door and only used in passing.