Buying a house with loft conversion, but no building reg certificate...

[Jimbo Mahoney]

Hi all,

I've done a lot of googling on this topic already, and can see that it's a very grey area with people on both sides of the argument...

We are at the final stages of buying a house with a loft conversion, which was done over 10 years ago.

The good news is that it's a 3-bed with a loft conversion, and advertised and priced as a 3-bed.

The other good news is that the vendors have building control certificate for the other modifications (internal wall, rear patio doors, wood-burning stove).

The bad news is that the council building control will not sign off on the loft conversion. Our lender is still happy to proceed however.

My concern is not the safety or the fact that it cannot be used as a bedroom - we are buying it as a 3-bed with a loft conversion.

My concern is that when we come to sell it on, the buyers will be worried just like we are. The home-buyers report flagged it up as "cannot confirm if loft conversion is done to a satisfactory standard - recommend having inspected by professional building inspection".

My understanding of the issue is that indemnity insurance cannot be taken out because the council have been approached and will not sign it off.

My other understanding is that the vendor could provide a certificate from the council stating that they will not enforce anything - therefore, future buyers would be somewhat reassured.

As far as I can see it, the issue is that the loft conversion cannot be officially classed as a bedroom, which is fine for us as we are buying it as a 3-bed. However, if we wanted to fully convert it, we know it could be £1000s to bring up to standard, as well as requiring walls opened up to inspect. This is also not particularly a concern as we have no desire to convert it. 3 beds is fine, including if we have a child / children.

We could partially improve it by fitting a door to the staircase and get the fire alarms / escapes checked, which would put our minds at ease if we wanted to use it as a bedroom, but still not sell it as a 4-bed.

In summary - it doesn't bother us that it's not officially a bedroom, but it does bother us in that a future buyer may be put off and want to take steps to avoid that / put them at ease.

I think I'm happy with it if the vendors provide a certificate from the council stating that they will not be taking any enforcement steps in the future. This means the house is exactly what the vendors state - a 3-bed with a converted loft that cannot be classified as a bedroom.

Thoughts and advice?

 

[SMN]

Sounds odd. Ours is/was slightly similar, in that the homebuyers survey said 'there is no door specifically to the loft conversion, we struggle to see how this was signed off' - but at the same time we have a certificate of approval/building inspectors sign off of the conversion. Do you know why the council wont sign off?

 

[Jimbo Mahoney]

I assume it's because they will need to remove part of the walls to inspect the beams etc.

My understanding is that it doesn't NEED to be signed off, unless it's to be officially classed as a bedroom, which it isn't and we don't plan to either.

My concern is that it will be enforced, but I'm hoping that since the Council have been out, that they won't enforce it either. A certificate to that extent would put our minds, and those of any future buyer, at ease somewhat.

 

[peterwalkley]

Has your Solicitor advised anything ? I had to deal with something similar when selling my mum's house as part of her estate. The upshot was that I agreed (as vendor) to pay for an insurance to cover any rectification work that may subsequently be needed. Don't remember it being much - something like £150. You could likely get the vendor to agree to something like that as condition of the sale - and you will need to do the same should you sell down the line.

If its more than 10 years since the work was done its unlikely to have been a cowboy job as it would surely have shown problems by now. The report and council are just being ultra-cautious as, without inspection and sign-off, they are liable if there is a problem.

 

[Showboat]

I bought a house in the same way, they were using the loft as a bedroom and its finished to a good standard. They only had approval for a storage space.
No idea why they didnt do it right. I had a builder look at it and he said the floors would need strengthened and the stairway would need work done to make it fire resistant. Would not have taken much money to do when they were doing it.. but the disruption now would be quite severe.
We use it as a guest bedroom, so used about 1-2 weeks a year.
Worked out well for us as we got the house a lot cheaper, whoever we sell to will get the same deal.

Solicitor didnt seem that bothered about it either.

One thing i learnt! If they were that lazy / cut the corners doing this.. what else have they half done? I see it everytime i peel something back to fix / repair / improve. I've yet to see something done to a decent standard

 

[fastwunz]

See this ALL the time.

It’s really not unusual and normally people don’t get the completion certificate from building control because they either forget or just don’t realise they need one.

You are being very pragmatic but of course, a future buyer might not be. The only water tight way around this is to get a building control inspector out and get it signed off. Most are straightforward and don’t want the create problems and based on the info you have given us, will likely just sign it off.

No guarantee of course

 

[fewfe3]

Shouldn't put future buyers off too much. They will be buying the house same as you, I.e as a 3 bed with a converted loft space. As long as you price it accordingly when you sell, they will also be getting a bargain.

 

[gort]

The house we're buying has a loft conversion, however on the planning application it had two parts where they wanted the loft conversion (approved) and a large out building in the garden (which was rejected.)
Would this application approval for the loft still be valid? I ask as a land registry search merely says "rejected." Am waiting to hear back from a solicitor. If they had to submit a new form with just the loft conversion then they don't appear to have done so.
Not yet in possession of any building certificate for this extension or another one they had done and no one can/will say if one actually exists or not!

 

[Jimbo Mahoney]

Has your Solicitor advised anything ? I had to deal with something similar when selling my mum's house as part of her estate. The upshot was that I agreed (as vendor) to pay for an insurance to cover any rectification work that may subsequently be needed. Don't remember it being much - something like £150. You could likely get the vendor to agree to something like that as condition of the sale - and you will need to do the same should you sell down the line.

Solicitor has simply stated that lender is happy to proceed.

Your insurance cover is indemnity insurance, which as far as I understand, is not an option here because the council have inspected and refused to approve.

If its more than 10 years since the work was done its unlikely to have been a cowboy job as it would surely have shown problems by now. The report and council are just being ultra-cautious as, without inspection and sign-off, they are liable if there is a problem.

Agreed.

I bought a house in the same way, they were using the loft as a bedroom and its finished to a good standard. They only had approval for a storage space.
No idea why they didnt do it right. I had a builder look at it and he said the floors would need strengthened and the stairway would need work done to make it fire resistant. Would not have taken much money to do when they were doing it.. but the disruption now would be quite severe.
We use it as a guest bedroom, so used about 1-2 weeks a year.
Worked out well for us as we got the house a lot cheaper, whoever we sell to will get the same deal.

Solicitor didnt seem that bothered about it either.

One thing i learnt! If they were that lazy / cut the corners doing this.. what else have they half done? I see it everytime i peel something back to fix / repair / improve. I've yet to see something done to a decent standard

Well, they have many other alterations, all of which have building control approved (see my OP).

You are being very pragmatic but of course, a future buyer might not be. The only water tight way around this is to get a building control inspector out and get it signed off. Most are straightforward and don’t want the create problems and based on the info you have given us, will likely just sign it off.

No guarantee of course

See my OP - building control have been out and will not sign it off.

Shouldn't put future buyers off too much. They will be buying the house same as you, I.e as a 3 bed with a converted loft space. As long as you price it accordingly when you sell, they will also be getting a bargain.

Agreed. It's not like they were advertising it as a 4-bed.

I think future buyers, and ourselves, just need reassured that they'll be no problems down the line.

In my mind, that just means getting the Council to say that, although they won't approve it, they won't go ahead with any enforcement.

 

[jellybeard999]

How much more would it be worth as a 4 bed and how much would it cost to do properly? Might be worth getting the works done and signed off come resale?

 

[Jimbo Mahoney]

Yeh, that's what we're thinking.

Meeting with our solicitor went well today - just waiting for the mortgage lender to give the OK on lending on the house, after building control refusing to give sign-off...

She's 90% certain they'll be OK, as everyone, including our solicitor, seems to be of the opinion that the "10 year rule" is enough to "get away with it".

Still, it'll be both a shame, and a blessing in disguise if the lender refuses the mortgage now. It will save us having the same hassle when we come to sell, but a shame to lose the house.

 

[Foghorn Leghorn]

If the loft has already been converted then your have to put in a regularisation application with the council as well as retrospective planning permission if required. They won't sign off on it though without evidence that the work had been completed correctly so will most likely require the plasterboard removing from walls and ceiling and the floors pulling up, plus whatever else needs altering to bring it all in line with the regs.

 

[Gribs]

I wouldn't unless you plan to covert it properly or just revert it back to being a loft. You could have insurance issues too.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...rer-refused-pay-said-7-bedrooms-not-five.html

 

[Hamzter]

Don't know anything on the legal side, but I bought a place back in 2010 with a non-approved loft conversion (it was a bargain ), and spent a good while stripping it out and redoing it myself to get building control approval, so I know a fair bit on the construction side.

The reality is that it's unlikely to be something small that can be rectified to gain approval, it usually requires significant modification or stripping completely. There's a handful of major requirements people usually fail to meet so go with the easy non-approved route...

• Floor structure - new joists/steels required , which can take away an unacceptable amount of headroom.
• Stairs - there are requirements on angle, head height etc. that can be difficult to meet.
• Fire protection - As well as the loft itself, there must be a fire protected stairwell to a ground floor exit, again often not possible (e.g. stairwells opening into living rooms)
• Fire egress - There has to be a window which can be accessed with a ladder, roof structure often prevents this

It's likely one or more of these it fails on, some councils are flexible however, e.g. I've heard of the fire egress requirements being dropped in exchange for increasing fire resistance from 30 minutes to 60 minutes.

FYI it cost me about £13k (and a lot of time) to sort my house, I would expect ~£20k if I paid someone to do it, that's for a 6x6m conversion.

 

[Adam]

I've just had a loft conversion done, the council came over a couple of times and I have a certificate issued by them. I believe this is what you would aim for to be completely compliant.

 

[eidolon]

When I lived in Bristol I viewed loads of houses that had loft conversions with no building reg certificate. As far as I could tell if you only classed the room as "storage" then it's fine, it's only if you want to officially class the room as a bedroom and sell it as such that you need the certificate. I'm not sure how true it is but literally 50% of the houses I viewed were like that. I was told that a "storage" conversion costs in the region of £7k whereas the "bedroom" conversion is more like £20k+ so it's not worth spending the extra as you wouldn't get it back when you came to sell.

 

[tom_nieto]

If it’s accurately reflected in the asking price then I don’t really see the problem. Similarly if you come to sell this can be reflected in your selling price. If you’re pricing the place as if it were a 4 bed then you’ll put people off.

The problems arise if you’re trying to pass it off as a bedroom without building regs. If it’s occasional use or storage then it doesn’t really matter. It all depends on the area and whether you have the money or the need to get it up to scratch.

 

[MikeTheNative]

While some lenders and solicitors will be ok with it, there's a good chance that some may not so it could throw up a few issues if you try to sell.

 

[Scrutinize]

@Jimbo Mahoney

It's not a loft conversion. From a lenders perspective you are buying a 3 bed house priced correctly as three bed.

Without Building Reg Cert it's basically a poshly boarded loft.

The 'loft conversion' element is simply poetic licence marketing spin by the estate agents really.

The only real concern is that nothing dangerous has been done re electrics, plumbing and access and you have current electrical certs etc.

People will do this purposefully to save costs & prevent council tax regrading but gain the space.

It won't be an issue when selling on unless you try and sell it as a proper loft conversion.

 

[MassiveJim]

The only doubt for me would be, what standard have they finished it to, getting building regs certs isn't hard.

I recently went the "posh storage" option myself due to nowhere to put the stairs without losing another room (access is via ladder). and when the council guy came to inspect the work to sign it off, he didn't even know what he was inspecting, I had to tell him.
He looked at the additional purlins that had been put in and said something along the lines of "seems ok to me" and left.
He must have been in the house less than 5 minutes.

Given that the above happened to me I can't think of a reason not to get building regs unless corners have been cut elsewhere