Calorie concerns & fat loss stall - Help!

[Yucca]

Hi all

Summer 2016 I was 32% bf and weighed 103kg - Considered obese!

Jan 2017 after 3x week personal trainer gym sessions (weights) and 1x week football 90mins and a very strict clean Keto diet (very low carbs) and I'm down to 22% bf and weigh 82kg.

Im male, 30, 5'11 so my weight is reasonable now for my height and I look vastly better, feel vastly better and I'm far stronger and fitter than before!

PROBLEM 1: Iv been 82kg and 22% bf for 3-4 weeks now! Cant seem to shift any more body fat. I don't care about the kg weight anymore as I'm very happy with 82kg but my goal is 15% bf. Iv stalled and don't seem to move!

PROBLEM 2: On keto I never calorie counted and still have great results. Keto is moderate fat so its occurred to me that my diet may be high in calorie dense foods (cheese, coconut oil, salmon, steak) and so perhaps I'm overeating. Iv used several online calculators but they all seem to give me vastly different numbers. I can't seem to get an accurate maintenance figure with my size, age, weight and exercise above in mind.

Any advice would be welcome guys!

 

[mrthingyx]

Hi all

Summer 2016 I was 32% bf and weighed 103kg - Considered obese!

Jan 2017 after 3x week personal trainer gym sessions (weights) and 1x week football 90mins and a very strict clean Keto diet (very low carbs) and I'm down to 22% bf and weigh 82kg.

Im male, 30, 5'11 so my weight is reasonable now for my height and I look vastly better, feel vastly better and I'm far stronger and fitter than before!

PROBLEM 1: Iv been 82kg and 22% bf for 3-4 weeks now! Cant seem to shift any more body fat. I don't care about the kg weight anymore as I'm very happy with 82kg but my goal is 15% bf. Iv stalled and don't seem to move!

PROBLEM 2: On keto I never calorie counted and still have great results. Keto is moderate fat so its occurred to me that my diet may be high in calorie dense foods (cheese, coconut oil, salmon, steak) and so perhaps I'm overeating. Iv used several online calculators but they all seem to give me vastly different numbers. I can't seem to get an accurate maintenance figure with my size, age, weight and exercise above in mind.

Any advice would be welcome guys!

Lift heavier weights?

In all seriousness, you need to know what your basal metabolic rate is, as well as an honest view of how much you are eating.

Physics (and a certain amount of biology) would indicate that if you eat too much you will stop losing weight; keto diets - being low in carbs - also help shed weight through reducing carbohydrate stores around the body (and therefore water weight).

So: you need to know what you're burning and what you're consuming to work out what you have to do... my first choice would be something like:

- drop your rest times between sets;
- start squatting and deadlifting (assuming you aren't already, of course);
- 4 sets of 8-12 where your last two sets require maximum voluntary contractions to squeeze the reps out;
- 45 minutes of weights; 15 of either rowing or cycling (running is stupid [trollololol] and cross trainers are worse);
- sleep for at least 8hrs a night.

I have cut a couple of times before and it is just soul-destroying. I am happier eating what I want and adjusting my training to suit.
-

 

[Maccapacca]

If you're a big eater and enjoy food try fasting one day a week. Eat dinner early then fast and eat dinner the next day
Helped my stall in weight loss as I love food.

 

[Yucca]

Lift heavier weights?

In all seriousness, you need to know what your basal metabolic rate is, as well as an honest view of how much you are eating.

Physics (and a certain amount of biology) would indicate that if you eat too much you will stop losing weight; keto diets - being low in carbs - also help shed weight through reducing carbohydrate stores around the body (and therefore water weight).

So: you need to know what you're burning and what you're consuming to work out what you have to do... my first choice would be something like:

- drop your rest times between sets;
- start squatting and deadlifting (assuming you aren't already, of course);
- 4 sets of 8-12 where your last two sets require maximum voluntary contractions to squeeze the reps out;
- 45 minutes of weights; 15 of either rowing or cycling (running is stupid [trollololol] and cross trainers are worse);
- sleep for at least 8hrs a night.

I have cut a couple of times before and it is just soul-destroying. I am happier eating what I want and adjusting my training to suit.
-

Basil rate is about 1850. I assume your suggesting I work out what I burn at football and during my 3 days at the gym and add this on to my basil rate figure to work out maintenance rather than using the online calculators?

But 1) isn't basil rate literally zero movement? Even if I can accurately work out football and gym calories burned what about day to day random stuff - walks, house work etc? 2) how can I accurately work out how much I burn at football and gym!? My guess work be football 90 mins is 600cal and each weights gym session is 300?! What about afterburn calories!?

Training - we do mostly lots of compound work inc plenty of squats and deadlifts. I leave this part to the PT who keeps me pushing and keeps workouts different. I'm sure my work outs are mostly 8-9/10 intensity. Though I rarely get DOMS now. But you don't when you gym frequently right??

 

[Yucca]

If you're a big eater and enjoy food try fasting one day a week. Eat dinner early then fast and eat dinner the next day
Helped my stall in weight loss as I love food.

I'm considering IF for the health benefits. But generally speaking I have no problem with a calorie restriction diet and willpower.

My problem is I don't know what calories are right as all the online calculators give me different answers!!

 

[Somnambulist]

If you've been maintaining your weight for several weeks, then your current food intake is *drum roll* around maintennence.

Online calculators are there to provide a rough starting point, nothing more, and then calories/macros are tweaked based on how fast, slow, or nonexistent changes in the scales and measurements are - which is what actually matters.

Since fat obviously has weight and you want less fat (as opposed to less muscle, bone density etc), your weight will inevitably have to come down further. If you're 22% bodyfat now at 82KG, then it means roughly 18KG of you is fat. If you were aiming to be 15% or so, which is the start of what's considered being leanish you'd have to be something like 75-76kg.

Just spend a week or two logging your food to see what your intake looks like like calorie/protein/fat wise then from there you'll have a better idea of how you can manipulate the variables (reducing portion size, substituting foods for lower calorie versions, realising you're eating 500 cals more than you thought you were etc).

 

[Freefaller]

If you honestly log your food for a week or two (you'll probably have to weight it too), I'm happy to have a look at it, either via fitness pal or any other calorie counting app - though you'll probably be able to do it yourself - if you're sure you have measured your BMR correctly and your RMR - both are different - then you can look at your food log and work out if you're overeating or not.

Bodyfat cannot be targeted individually, least without surgery... so if you drop fat your weight will also drop. Sure, you can minimise muscle atrophy with fat loss, but unless you're on special supplements, losing fat and GAINING muscle is nigh on impossible - plus requires such arduous routines and crazy diets and hormonal manipulation that most people unless they are pros don't bother with it.

Also a point to note is, the more lean muscle you have, the higher your metabolism will be (in general), so whilst packing on some lean muscle won't make you look like Arnie, it will certainly help act as a catalyst for calorie expenditure.

 

[Yucca]

If you honestly log your food for a week or two (you'll probably have to weight it too), I'm happy to have a look at it, either via fitness pal or any other calorie counting app - though you'll probably be able to do it yourself - if you're sure you have measured your BMR correctly and your RMR - both are different - then you can look at your food log and work out if you're overeating or not.

Bodyfat cannot be targeted individually, least without surgery... so if you drop fat your weight will also drop. Sure, you can minimise muscle atrophy with fat loss, but unless you're on special supplements, losing fat and GAINING muscle is nigh on impossible - plus requires such arduous routines and crazy diets and hormonal manipulation that most people unless they are pros don't bother with it.

Also a point to note is, the more lean muscle you have, the higher your metabolism will be (in general), so whilst packing on some lean muscle won't make you look like Arnie, it will certainly help act as a catalyst for calorie expenditure.

That would be greatly appreciated good sir! I assume you just need to know item name, calories, fat, carbs and protein content? Whats your preferred app for ease of use and by way of sharing with you?

Some things will be easy to weigh/count but others will be a bit harder. Ie me, my wife and sister make a lot of meals together so when you grate loads of cheese for fajitas you can weigh the whole lot but harder to get estimates when you share amongst 3 plates when your not necessarily having exactly 1/3rd each. Please being Indian Punjabi we do eat some indian food which is home made and harder to work out. But I can certainly give it a good go. I may have to invest in a good scale!

I understand your points in regards to spot reduction not being possible, fat loss can't really come without weight loss etc etc. If I loose much more weight il begin to look very thin so my thoughts were - If I eat at maintenance and train hard I will hopefully slowly loose body fat and build muscle at the same time? I do appreciate its very hard to do both at once. But a proper cut will mean loosing weight and possible muscle mass/strength and a bulk will mean putting body fat on. Surly there is a middle ground? Albeit harder and slower?

In addition to a clean diet I do the following to improve muscle growth/retention and improve my daily burn:

1) Drink loads of cold water
2) Eat spicy food
3) Spoon of coconut oil daily
4) High protein diet, medium healthy fats from olive oil, eggs, dairy, advocado and fish.
5) Green tea supplement daily
6) 3g CLA daily
7) Very low carb on rest days with medium sized carb meal pro/post work outs - i.e. Carb cycling
8) Calorie cycling - Eat more on gym days and less on rest days
9) 2-3 Cups of coffee daily and pre work out

Surly I am on the right tracks?!

 

[tom_e]

You're on a strict keto diet or your not, it's not possible to be on a keto diet and having carb based meals around training which as you allude to is carb cycling. They're similar but rather different things.

Will this really be making the difference? I wouldn't have thought so but it's worth pointing out so everyone knows where you're coming from.

 

[Yucca]

You're on a strict keto diet or your not, it's not possible to be on a keto diet and having carb based meals around training which as you allude to is carb cycling. They're similar but rather different things.

Will this really be making the difference? I wouldn't have thought so but it's worth pointing out so everyone knows where you're coming from.

Sorry just to clarify, I was on a strict Keto diet for 6-7 months. But my PT suggested carb cycling rather than keto would be far better for faster muscle growth. Since Jan (4-5 weeks now) iv moved from keto to carb cycling. Not sure I agree with my PT but I'm trying it.

Thoughts on this and the above are all welcome!

 

[mrthingyx]

Sorry just to clarify, I was on a strict Keto diet for 6-7 months. But my PT suggested carb cycling rather than keto would be far better for faster muscle growth. Since Jan (4-5 weeks now) iv moved from keto to carb cycling. Not sure I agree with my PT but I'm trying it.

Thoughts on this and the above are all welcome!

As LibreTombeur suggested, gaining muscle and shedding fat are - effectively - nigh on impossible to achieve at the same time. The basic premise is eat less to lose weight; eat moar to make gains. Diet types are purely a question of practicality and choice: they all work by managing your intake but by different means, so you just have to choose the method that works for you.

 

[Freefaller]

LibreTombeur!

 

[D.P.]

When i stalled I simply increased my exercise volume because I was already eating a pretty minimal amount which was depressing. Now I get to eat around 3300 calories a day and stay around goal weight, never feel like I am having small portions or avoiding snacks, quite the opposite I have to pile on extra helpings and snack constantly just to maintain weight.
Of course extra exercise is not for everyone but I really enjoy running, swimming and cycling, I also really enjoy eating, and I enjoy plenty of carbohydrates. This way I can have my cake and eat it, literally.

 

[mrthingyx]

LibreTombeur!

Nice to see you posting more often in here.

 

[Yucca]

As LibreTombeur suggested, gaining muscle and shedding fat are - effectively - nigh on impossible to achieve at the same time. The basic premise is eat less to lose weight; eat moar to make gains. Diet types are purely a question of practicality and choice: they all work by managing your intake but by different means, so you just have to choose the method that works for you.

I have heard this many times and do understand the basic rule of thumb but surly if one was to continue training very hard and eating only maintenance calories or a small surplus the body would repair damaged muscle leading to muscle gain whilst your body looses some body fat via all the exercise?

What about roman soldiers or spartans or other historical figures shown to be ripped. Surly they didn't bulk and cut? I would guess they just 'trained' very hard and ate sensible amounts of food as per hunger requirements.

 

[Yucca]

If you all agree its impossible and I can only choose from bulking or cutting what do you suggest in my case?

At 82kg I'm still carrying a lot of body fat at 22% and this needs to come down. Based on averages I'm bordering the high side for a male in his 30s.

That being said I can't imagine loosing any more weight without looking very skinny. Please have already started to say I look unhealthy and scrawny and too thin. And loosing strength and muscle mass iv worked so hard to build the last 6 months sounds....sad!

 

[Yucca]

And who is LibreTombeur?!!

 

[Freefaller]

Me - he was being funny and translating into my home language!

In your case I would drop body fat. Once you're lean, a) you'll look better b) you'll be able to pack on muscle more gradually and see the results more easily.

 

[Somnambulist]

If you all agree its impossible and I can only choose from bulking or cutting what do you suggest in my case?

At 82kg I'm still carrying a lot of body fat at 22% and this needs to come down. Based on averages I'm bordering the high side for a male in his 30s.

That being said I can't imagine loosing any more weight without looking very skinny. Please have already started to say I look unhealthy and scrawny and too thin. And loosing strength and muscle mass iv worked so hard to build the last 6 months sounds....sad!

You have to take a long term view.

However perfect and productive your training is, in a calorie surplus some of those calories are going to get stored as fat. For various reasons, the more body fat you're carrying, the worse your body gets at partitioning that surplus of calories and using them to build new tissue (google 'p-ratio') and so as your body fat % goes up, the % of your surplus that goes to muscle fibre growth goes down.

Since fat can be lost far quicker than muscle can built and having a relatively athletic body fat % makes for better nutrient partitioning, it's going to be a better idea to start off from a lean base with a view to put on weight slowly rather than adding weight to a not-so-lean base. You'll be happier with your appearance, it's easier to see changes in your physique, and more importantly, dieting from something like 18%-10% is not going to take as long as dieting from 30% to 10% in future (and you want to spend as little time dieting as necessary if the goal is to get bigger and stronger).

Starting off at this base can be dispiriting the first time you reach it because you realise there's not a lot of you in terms of muscle, but ultimately it's a better launchpad for gains so just grin and bare it and tell yourself you'll only be that skinny once.

As for worrying about losing significant strength and muscle while dieting, this should not happen unless some combination of the below are occurring:
a) cals too low/deficit too big
b) dietary protein being inadequate
c) ineffective training (not doing what got you that strength/muscle in the first place - use it or lose it sort of thing).

 

[Kris_90]

Me - he was being funny and translating into my home language!

In your case I would drop body fat. Once you're lean, a) you'll look better b) you'll be able to pack on muscle more gradually and see the results more easily.

You have to take a long term view.

However perfect and productive your training is, in a calorie surplus some of those calories are going to get stored as fat. For various reasons, the more body fat you're carrying, the worse your body gets at partitioning that surplus of calories and using them to build new tissue (google 'p-ratio') and so as your body fat % goes up, the % of your surplus that goes to muscle fibre growth goes down.

Since fat can be lost far quicker than muscle can built and having a relatively athletic body fat % makes for better nutrient partitioning, it's going to be a better idea to start off from a lean base with a view to put on weight slowly rather than adding weight to a not-so-lean base. You'll be happier with your appearance, it's easier to see changes in your physique, and more importantly, dieting from something like 18%-10% is not going to take as long as dieting from 30% to 10% in future (and you want to spend as little time dieting as necessary if the goal is to get bigger and stronger).

Starting off at this base can be dispiriting the first time you reach it because you realise there's not a lot of you in terms of muscle, but ultimately it's a better launchpad for gains so just grin and bare it and tell yourself you'll only be that skinny once.

As for worrying about losing significant strength and muscle while dieting, this should not happen unless some combination of the below are occurring:
a) cals too low/deficit too big
b) dietary protein being inadequate
c) ineffective training (not doing what got you that strength/muscle in the first place - use it or lose it sort of thing).

Listen to these gentlemen.

I was in your position, albeit a little less body fat, I couldn't cut any longer as MrThingyx said it's soul destroying. I choose to bulk but looking back this was the wrong decision. I should have kept cutting until I got to about 12% body fat and then started a lean bulk.

You've got to think long term