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Cams & Timing question

Discussion in 'Motors' started by shauncr91, May 11, 2013.

  1. shauncr91

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 28, 2007

    Posts: 11,382

    Location: Sheffield

    Hi guys, got a quick question regarding cams and timing.

    I've got a set of Newman 200spec cams ready to go in my Fiesta ST and just wondered about the timing. I was always under the impression that they'd have to be timed correctly due to the longer duration and higher lift but a couple of people I've spoken to have mentioned that they'd just use the standard settings that Ford do with the standard engine, so who is right? The people saying they'll need new timing settings or those saying they'll just drop right in on default timing so long as I'm not changing the pulleys?

    And while we're at it, if anyone in the north can recommend a place/person to fit them then let me know, best price I've had so far is JamSport in Northampton at £180 :)
     
  2. Xez

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jun 24, 2005

    Posts: 2,024

    Location: Lincolnshire

    Most fast roam cams will work at default timings but to get the best out of them they will need adjusting and mapping.
     
  3. meh?

    Hitman

    Joined: Aug 31, 2011

    Posts: 876

    Location: Mansfield

    See what pumaspeed can do for you! there closer then jamsport and might even price match aswell!! When I had cossie 200 cams in mine, I waited out and got a remap at the same time when they got fitted. You should see some nice gains !
     
  4. shauncr91

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 28, 2007

    Posts: 11,382

    Location: Sheffield

    Pumaspeed are the ones who told me about using default timing and only needing adjustment if changing the pulleys, problem is they told me that they'll only install items which are bought from themselves which is a let down because they are a 15 minute drive away!

    The car will be getting a remap to go with the cams but not at the same time, I'm going to run them for a couple of weeks first and possibly couple the map up with fitting a Cosworth inlet :) JamSport will be doing the map and it'll be a proper live map not a stock one.
     
  5. rodenal

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 7, 2011

    Posts: 10,111

    What sort of gains does an ST get from cams / mapping then?

    Back in the day I had a VR6 that the previous owner had spent £1k on getting cams & map done....the dyno only showed a 10ish bhp gain iirc. It did make it feel much more aggressive than a standard car mind you
     
  6. shauncr91

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 28, 2007

    Posts: 11,382

    Location: Sheffield

    Standard the cars have around 147, mine is running 173bhp with a full milltek decat system, K&N and remap from previous owner, Mountune cars hit 185bhp with that plus cams but mine are slightly better spec than the Pipers they use and will be mapped better for my car so should be able to get 190 :)

    As you said though it isn't just the numbers, they change how the car drives immensely and after 4.5-5k they just go berserk :D
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2013
  7. The Running Man

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 33,211

    Location: block 16, cell 12

    Quite sceptical about those numbers..

    But anyway, adjustable cam pulleys and full setup on a dyno would probably better than putting new cams in and praying.
     
  8. shauncr91

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 28, 2007

    Posts: 11,382

    Location: Sheffield

    The results have been proven many times by people who've got the same mods, here's a snippet of the STOC leaderboard:
    200BHP - 153lb/ft - PeterBrace - (Inlet, Cams, F/Ex, CAIS, 60mmTB, Map)
    199BHP - 159lb/ft - GrandadST - (Inlet, Cams, F/Ex, CAIS, 60mmTB, Map)
    199BHP - 157lb/ft - Alex21 - (Cams, F/Ex, Air, 60mmTB, Map)
    198BHP - 146lb/ft - David - (Inlet, Cams, F/Ex, Air, 60mmTB, Map)
    197BHP - 179lb/ft - Th3Minstr3l - (Inlet, Cams, F/Ex, Air, 60mmTB, Map)
    197BHP - 143lb/ft - Ryan1990ST - (Inlet, Cams, F/Ex, Air, 60mmTB, Map)
    196BHP - 159lb/ft - Dan_The_Man - (Mountune MR200)
    196BHP - 160lb/ft - Daz321 - (Cams, F/Ex, Air, Map)
    195BHP - 147lb/ft - mike88 - (Inlet, Cams, F/Ex, Air, Map)
    188BHP - 167lb/ft - brad_barker12 - (F/Ex, CAIS, Map)
    187BHP - 167lb/ft - Stason - (F/Ex, Air, 60mmTB, Map)
    187BHP - 165lb/ft - ST85 - (Cams, F/Ex, Air, 60mmTB, Map)
    187BHP - 165lb/ft - st500 dave - (Cams, F/Ex, CAIS, 60mmTB, Map)
    187BHP - 156lb/ft - Alex W - (Mountune MP185)
    184BHP - 156lb/ft - fred33 - (Cams, F/Ex, CAIS, 60mmTB, Map)
    184BHP - 152lb/ft - ST_Neil - (Mountune MP185)
    181BHP - 168lb/ft - Smileyface - (F/Ex, Air, Map)
    180BHP - 166lb/ft - danman15 - (F/Ex, CAIS, 60mmTB, Map)

    What kind of benefit do you get from the pulleys? Not really something I've looked into.
     
  9. Westyfield2

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 14, 2005

    Posts: 12,496

    Location: Bath

    Firstly, there are two types of timing on an engine. Cam/Valve timing & Ignition timing.
    Cam/Valve timing is phyiscally set by altering the angle of the cams by unbolting them and rotating them, and is nothing to do with the map.
    The ignition timing is part of the map.

    Normally the cam manufacturer will have a set of timings that they recommend running them at (be it standard or their own), and you'd set them to this baseline. Then to get maximum performance you can swing them slightly. This should be done on the Rolling Road, and by someone who knows what they're doing!
    It's easier if you've got Vernier pulleys as you can swing the timing accurately, without having to undo the centre camshaft bolt, taking the cam cover off, or guess the degrees. Without Verniers you can still adjust the timing, but you will have to TDC and lock the cams, release the bolts and turn the crank to the required degrees. Then lock everything carefully and do it up.

    Oh and I wouldn't run a different set of cams without being mapped. Well unless you fit them yourself and drive at part throttle with low RPMs on the way on the mapper (don't want it to go lean at high RPM).
     
  10. Will

    Mobster

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 4,429

    Location: Wolverhampton

    The numbers quoted are achievable assuming the car has a full exhaust system including manifold and a decent intake kit, as well as the cams and a suitable remap.
     
  11. Matt82

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 13, 2004

    Posts: 16,548

    Can you post up plots comparing torque before and after?
     
  12. Eliot

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 29, 2005

    Posts: 5,738

    Nothing funny about those numbers,
    The car is pretty vastly de tuned out of the box
     
  13. Dogbreath

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 16,616

    Location: Devon

    Throwing a cam in using existing timing marks/locking points will not necessarily get you the recommended timing for an aftermarket cam, since the lobes are not usualy guaranteed to be ground at exactly the right angle relative to these points.

    The correct way to set up the cam timing is to use a DTI on a valve lifter and on a piston (through the spark plug hole) to set the timing using the manufacturers recommended method (usually setting a specific lift at TDC).

    If the sprockets are just bolted to the cams with no key/pin (as the pulleys are in the earlier Zetec), then this allows infinite adjustment during the build up anyway. Vernier adjustment is only needed if you want to adjust the timing afterwards, e.g. on a dyno, and optimising cam timing takes a lot of dyno time.