Can anyone help with these abstract patterns?

Actually, thinking about it, does it really make that much difference?

If you get an interview, take the interview and then get an offer, then you're part of their quota of offers. But let's say that you decline their offer. They'll make the offer to person x, from their waiting list.

But, if you decline the interview in the first place, then person y gets the interview. Let's say person y gets in and they accept it, then person x will not get in by virtue of that offer being declined.

In both cases, someone misses out on the opportunity to have an offer to study medicine.
 
TheCenturion said:
Actually, thinking about it, does it really make that much difference?

If you get an interview, take the interview and then get an offer, then you're part of their quota of offers. But let's say that you decline their offer. They'll make the offer to person x, from their waiting list.

But, if you decline the interview in the first place, then person y gets the interview. Let's say person y gets in and they accept it, then person x will not get in by virtue of that offer being declined.

In both cases, someone misses out on the opportunity to have an offer to study medicine.
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I'm afraid you've confused me a little with your person X and person Y scenario.

What I was saying that as tres had probably decided he was going to take Newcastle and Manchester as his firm and insurance before receiving his response from Durham then if he had withdrawn his application from Durham prior to hearing back from them then the offer that he received would in all likelihood have gone to another student that would otherwise have received a rejection. This offer might have been the only one that the other student receives and make the difference between him studying that year, or having to take a gap year to reapply or never doing medicine at all (we're getting a bit 'Sliding Doors' here, I grant you.)

In fairness to tres, he obviously didn't know so it's not a massive crime. This is something of a pet peeve of mine, because from the access course that I did about 20 out of the group of 25 didn't get any offers, and to say they were gutted was an understatement.

There was a guy on another forum (new media medicine - he's a moderator there now) who was applying as a mature student at the age of about 40. He applied the same year that I did, but didn't get a place one any of his 4 GEM courses. The next year I saw that he applied for 2 GEM courses and as a backup, 2 5-year ones. This time he was more successful, receiving 4 invitations to interview and before long he received an unconditional offer from the GEM course he wanted to go to. I posted to congratulate him on his offer and asked if he was going to withdraw from the 5 year course he was waiting to hear back from, so the offer could go to someone else, in all likelihood a nervous 18 year old. He replied that he would not, since he had paid for his UCAS application and also to attend the interview and so was entitled to know whether or not he would have been successful. Eventually he did receive his offer and bragged that he turned it down. He's actually a pretty popular guy on that forum so it didn't really serve for me to try and make the point with him, but in my opinion it speaks volumes about the type of person he was and I don't think he's the type of guy you'd want as your doctor.

As I say, I'm not putting all this at tres's door, but I think it's something that applicants should consider.
 
Jolteh said:
What I was saying that as tres had probably decided he was going to take Newcastle and Manchester as his firm and insurance before receiving his response from Durham then if he had withdrawn his application from Durham prior to hearing back from them then the offer that he received would in all likelihood have gone to another student that would otherwise have received a rejection. This offer might have been the only one that the other student receives and make the difference between him studying that year, or having to take a gap year to reapply or never doing medicine at all (we're getting a bit 'Sliding Doors' here, I grant you.)
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You've really over-complicated the situation.

If a a University has 100 places for Medicine, they'll make around 110 offers. They may even have a wait list of another 10 people (that they'll hold on UCAS), and maybe even another list of people they will reject and make a post-UCAS offer too. Soton have done this, for instance. If you turn down an offer at an early stage, it just pushes someone else up the list. The person at the very bottom is no more likely to get a place, just a little closer. It's not as though there is only 100 offers made for 100 places. But even then, it's absurd to suggest by not rejecting an offer you're stealing someone's place.

So, in short, I'm not sure how you think someone not rejecting a university is disadvantaging someone else. Even if they withdrew a minute before the course start date, the place would be filled. Again, at Soton, someone started a year or two ago a week in to the course.

Furthermore,

Jolteh said:
who was applying as a mature student at the age of about 40..........in all likelihood a nervous 18 year old
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- logical fallacy, Appeal to emotion. Maybe ageist.

Jolteh said:
it speaks volumes about the type of person he was and I don't think he's the type of guy you'd want as your doctor.
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- logical fallacy, ad hominem. Also arguably false - I quite like the idea of driven doctors.
 
Jolteh said:
He's actually a pretty popular guy on that forum so it didn't really serve for me to try and make the point with him, but in my opinion it speaks volumes about the type of person he was and I don't think he's the type of guy you'd want as your doctor.
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meghatronic said:
Also arguably false - I quite like the idea of driven doctors.
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As someone who has gone through the whole process through to retirement that sounds exactly like the type of person who will succeed as a doctor. Popular = people skills, driven = dedication, focused = more likely to succeed.

If you think that is anything you are going to be pretty shocked when you see the antics that occur on last part of the race to be a consultant, when you are fighting against other units for budgets and beds, etc. It's damn ruthless and about to get more so.
 
meghatronic said:
You've really over-complicated the situation.
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No, I'm afraid you've oversimplified it. The number of offers a university makes depends on quite a few factors. My university, for example, have been known to give out more than twice the number of offers than they have available spaces for. Compare that to a university like Oxford who will give out pretty much the same number of offers as they have places, knowing that virtually all will accept.

In addition, the way in which they assign places also differs. Using Durham as an example (because it was the one I was talking about in my initial post), when I applied they gave out all of their offers and rejections in a single batch. This meant that offers which were not taken up were not assigned to another candidate. In exceptional intakes where universities do not fall within the upper or lower margins of their quota it has been known for students to receive late offers, but these examples are notable for their rarity.

As to your response to my story: you're welcome to your opinion. Perhaps I should have been a little tighter with my wording though. He isn't someone that I would want as my doctor. To me, seeing a 40 year old guy feeding his ego at the possible expense of some poor kid's future shows a pretty worrying lack of empathy that I wouldn't expect to see in a decent doctor. That's just me though. Shipman was a pretty driven guy I guess you could say. (Oh my, another fallacy!)
 
Durham don't give out their offers all at once.
I think I heard in the second round of offers bring sent out.
There has been another couple of groups of offers sent out.
I know several people who are still waiting to hear. I was still under the impression that it'll still get re-allocated, especially as a) there are still those waiting to here and b) it's before the 31st March
 
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Jolteh said:
To me, seeing a 40 year old guy feeding his ego at the possible expense of some poor kid's future shows a pretty worrying lack of empathy that I wouldn't expect to see in a decent doctor.
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That's an incredibly ageist and insensitive remark and that's a stupid way to look at the situation. I'd also bet a lot of money that the 40yr old would make a better doctor than the 'kid'. Ultimately, why should an applicant have any empathy towards another applicant? The way they act to each other is of no baring to the way they act with patients.

Jolteh said:
This meant that offers which were not taken up were not assigned to another candidate.
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So, hypothetically (as a rule, not exception) what will happen to the place that he 'stole'? Will the University just think, oh, whatever. We'll just have one less medic this year? Note the wording, I said place, not offer.
Or do you concede he actually stole nothing - as he didn't have a concrete place, the offer will either fall to someone else or not be realised as a place. You did indeed complicate something that's very simple.

tres said:
I was still under the impression that it'll still get re-allocated, especially as a) there are still those waiting to here and b) it's before the 31st March
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Of course they'll get re-allocated. Even if someone dropped out in the first week it'd get re-allocated. Medical schools run at capacity. Always.
 
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24th Sept, but we have lectures during freshers week. Strange, and not nice! Probably moving up on the 22nd. Got my @newcastle.ac.uk email address which feels exciting!
 
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