Can you crack it? - GCHQ

Caporegime
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I know that, I was just saying to Dowie that it's not just reserved for Military and MOD :)

Fair enough, but my main point is vetting isn't necessarily centralised. The previous poster's experience of getting DV cleared won't necessarily be the same as a prospective applicant for this job if they carry out their own vetting. Whether or not they essentially subcontract some of that out to the DVA is another matter.
 
Caporegime
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As for arguments about pay - I'd assume people wanting to do jobs like these wouldn't be purely motivated by money. In other news lots of very capable grads join the armed forces and end up earning significantly less than their contemporaries in accountancy, law and banking. The armed forces still manages to recruit some highly qualified and motivated individuals.
 
Caporegime
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You say that, but you disregard that GCHQ invented RSA public-key encryption. Of course, nobody knew that they did, because it remained top-secret classified until 1998, 20 years after its public release by a set of people who created it independently (hence the naming). Who is to say just how other many inventions/discoveries remain top secret for a few decades to come?

Lets also not forget that Alan Turing worked for GCHQ cracking the German Enigma code.

Yes there will always be the work happening in academia, but to claim that a lot of "interesting work won't be done at GCHQ" strikes me as disingenuous, with little more to support that than mere supposition. One cannot know either way, but history tells us that interesting work in security was indeed occurring at GCHQ, and so the more reasonable assumption to make would be that the opposite of what you claim is true.

The idea that just because firm x pays zk less than firm y is a "rip off" is rather silly. It does suggest one is motivated only by money. There are many other factors to a job that simply cannot be quantified with an equivalence to the pay. My friend who has recently completed his PhD has gone to work at an investment bank, and told me he was being paid £36k. Gobsmacked, I said I'd have expected it to been £15k higher, given he had worked there previously and as an intern during his PhD. He told me that he had taken the option for lots of additional training, all paid for by the company (and not coming out of his own wallet). A smaller pay check keeps him in the lower tax band, and the company pays for the training, rather than him. His pay looks smaller but is in fact larger. On the other hand, his girlfriend, also working in finance, and for less, is in an office where she regularly stays in work later than 7PM, and is getting paid less for it. Could one have inferred that from the salaries alone? No, in fact one might have assumed the other way round.

Before I started my PhD, I worked at an IT company paying £26,000, and within 2 years I had upped to £30,000, with a prospective £35,000 on the table if I had not left to do my PhD. Again, something you cannot infer from the advertised salary, is the rate of progression. We also had a pool table at work (which I spent significant amounts of time at). If I'd gone to a bank to work for £35,000 starting salary, who is to say my progression would have been the same(or similar), that I would have had a pool table I could visit whenever I liked, that I would have even enjoyed the job as much as I did. Would I have been able to clock off exactly once my hours were done, as I did at my previous job? Would I have been in a silent room full of people glued to their desks, or would it have been vibrant and full of lively discussion, like my previous workplace? Truth is, one does not know if the advertised salary represents value for money until they actually do the job.

Not having mentioned cost of living yet, the job at GCHQ could represent excellent value for money, particularly in terms if training, flexibility and workplace ethic, all things which are hard(impossible) to guage from the job advertisement. To judge it as underpaid or a rip off, well, you can't unless you've worked in those roles.


I agree that a lot of interestign work is and was doen at GCHQ. But I doubt that the environment is as conductive as academia. There very my well be some work that is kept secret from adademic circles thoughs, otherwiser the mian gain is he data access and real-world application (which exists in the priate sector as well).

Maybe I wasn't clear when i spoke about salary, I did say salary/benefits. I take benefits to include not only any salary and bonuses but vacation time, training costs, flextime, location and all the small benefits that large firms often give you (esp. in the US) like company cars, free dining, legal insurance, health insurance, sabaticals, gym, fitness training. The complete package.

I would very much acept lower salareis for other benefits, be that simply living somewhere where I want to be rather than middle of no where, or London etc. Whcih is what I ahev always done. Not that I have a large career experience but at every opertunity I have turned down offers that had a higher salary in favour of offers with other better benefits to me.
 

Ev0

Ev0

Soldato
Joined
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A smaller pay check keeps him in the lower tax band

Why does this matter though? You only pay the higher rate on earnings over and above the lower rate thresholds.

Do people still think that if you are in the higher tax band you are actually worse off than staying in the lower banding??

Ignore me if that's not what you meant but I see it said a lot on forums that omg I'd rather stay in the lower tax band as I'll be worse off otherwise :p
 
Caporegime
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Why does this matter though? You only pay the higher rate on earnings over and above the lower rate thresholds.

Do people still think that if you are in the higher tax band you are actually worse off than staying in the lower banding??

Ignore me if that's not what you meant but I see it said a lot on forums that omg I'd rather stay in the lower tax band as I'll be worse off otherwise :p

I noticed that but found it too strange. the only reason I can think of if say a company is willing to spend £40K on an employee who wants to do £10Ks worth fo courses, instead of the employee recieving 40K and paying taxes on that and then paying 10K to do the course he recieved 30K and doesn't pay for the course. Two things with this, if a company expects someone to do a course it should eb paid for anyway, not taking out of thier salary. Secondly, you have to be careful not to get stung for taxes on teh benefits anyway. E.g., if the deal is you get paid less but receive a company car then your taxes will stillr eflect this benefit.

So no, it is utterly stupid to proactively do soemthing to get ina lwer tax band. And anyone working at GCHQ will certainly laugh at the thought of having to pay them selves to do an course.

On a somewhat relaed note, the university where my girlfriend work offers free education to any spouse/children. Once amrried, i may sign for for a free MBA worth over $50K (will do it for several reason, not to get soemthign for nothing).
 
Associate
Joined
8 Jan 2011
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11
Why does this matter though? You only pay the higher rate on earnings over and above the lower rate thresholds.

Do people still think that if you are in the higher tax band you are actually worse off than staying in the lower banding??

Ignore me if that's not what you meant but I see it said a lot on forums that omg I'd rather stay in the lower tax band as I'll be worse off otherwise :p

I (and he) are not suggesting that lower tax band is better off, but that he is better off in this case:

Earn 51K-15k = 36k, and the company pays 15k for training

or,

Earn 51k (minus higher rate of tax on everything above 37.4k), and pay 15k himself, for training.

Is it clear why then, he is better off? Basically, anything the employer can pay for directly (even if it comes out of your salary) is better than you payingfor it yourself. The difference is even more pronounced when the salary difference in question is in higher tax bands.
 
Associate
Joined
8 Jan 2011
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11
Plus, you tend to feel less resentment when you're not paying for it yourself ..

I wonder if one could convince their employer to purchase items on one's behalf, and have the cost deducted from the salary. It would cost less, and if the business bought it without VAT, even less again XD
 
Caporegime
Joined
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32,618
I (and he) are not suggesting that lower tax band is better off, but that he is better off in this case:

Earn 51K-15k = 36k, and the company pays 15k for training

or,

Earn 51k (minus higher rate of tax on everything above 37.4k), and pay 15k himself, for training.

Is it clear why then, he is better off? Basically, anything the employer can pay for directly (even if it comes out of your salary) is better than you payingfor it yourself. The difference is even more pronounced when the salary difference in question is in higher tax bands.

You forgot the 3rd option, earn 51K and have the company pay 15K for training if it is deemed necessary. Hek, i wouldn't be surprised if it was illegal to charge the employee such training fees.

And you also need to be careful that the 15K of training fees paid for by the company is not counted as part of your taxable income, bringing you right back to where you started.
 
Caporegime
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
32,618
Plus, you tend to feel less resentment when you're not paying for it yourself ..

I wonder if one could convince their employer to purchase items on one's behalf, and have the cost deducted from the salary. It would cost less, and if the business bought it without VAT, even less again XD

You would then pay the tax as you would recieve a taxable benefit. Anf the company would be bankrupt for illegal tax evasion by not paying VAT on a product given to an employee.
 
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