Agreed and agreed. Alpine make awesome head unit, but steer clear of their speakers.
Ant
Car audio - quality over level spec?
- Thread starter Trifid
- Start date
Agreed and agreed. Alpine make awesome head unit, but steer clear of their speakers.
Ant
Good budget speakers, and great budget amps. I use one myself to drive my rears. But if you're an audiophile after high quality, then in my opinion, they don't cut it.
Ant
So how does this look? (Apart from having to come out of next months pay... 
)
JL Audio JL12W1v2-4 - 12" subwoofer
JL12W1v2-4 - 12" subwoofer
£109.99
12" subbox sealed
12" subbox sealed
£35.01
Focal 165A1 - 16.5cm components
165A1 - 16.5cm components
£129.99
Alpine CDE-102Ri - CD/MP3/USB/iPod Ready Tuner
CDE-102Ri - CD/MP3/USB/iPod Ready Tuner
£129.99
FP-07-08 - Ford Focus/Cougar with pocket with facia
FP-07-08 - Ford Focus/Cougar with pocket with facia
£14.99
Infinity REF5350a - 5-channel Amplifier
REF5350a - 5-channel Amplifier
£179.99
Sub Total £599.96
Total: £599.96
)JL Audio JL12W1v2-4 - 12" subwoofer
JL12W1v2-4 - 12" subwoofer
£109.99
12" subbox sealed
12" subbox sealed
£35.01
Focal 165A1 - 16.5cm components
165A1 - 16.5cm components
£129.99
Alpine CDE-102Ri - CD/MP3/USB/iPod Ready Tuner
CDE-102Ri - CD/MP3/USB/iPod Ready Tuner
£129.99
FP-07-08 - Ford Focus/Cougar with pocket with facia
FP-07-08 - Ford Focus/Cougar with pocket with facia
£14.99
Infinity REF5350a - 5-channel Amplifier
REF5350a - 5-channel Amplifier
£179.99
Sub Total £599.96
Total: £599.96
For optimum sound quality i would not advise going with that infinity amplifier. (Btw Infinity amps are JBL in disguise, they are both manufactured by Harman)
The THD levels are way too high:
50 watts RMS x 4 channels + 150 watts RMS x 1 channels at 4 ohms and ≤ 1% THD + Noise 60 watts x 4 + 300 watts x 1 at 2 ohms, 14.4V supply and ≤ 1% THD + N2
≤ 1% is far too high, which is the main problem with the car amps today. My old alpine 3552 has complete full specifications regarding power:distortion, and to be honest its the best car amp i've ever heard. (35w x4 at 0.04% THD) You can probably get better than this, but i very much doubt that it'll be in the form of a brand new amplifier. Your NAD C320BEE runs at 0.03% THD which is excellent, so as you can imagine that infinity isn't going to be a patch on your NAD. Going for an external amp is a good idea as the amplifiers built into the headunits are even worse.
My advice would be to look at second hand amplifiers that are slightly older since they were built around sound quality rather than giant power outputs. The V12 series alpines have almost always run at 0.08% THD, the newer PDX alpines are like everything else these days (circa 1%) so avoid them aswell. The best alpines have just a four digit number with no three letter code. (I only really know alpine, but i know that there are other brands that are equal or better, but i'm working on max sound quality minimum cost. Got all three of my alpines for less than £70 (two 4 channel and one 5 channel), although i inherited the 3552 which i am keeping as a spare at the moment as it needs some new parts for the switch mode psu)
Have a look on ampguts to get an idea of specs. (most of these are accurate, but some are missing spec)
Another thing to look for if you're after good sound quality is an active cross over to replace those passive ones that component speaker sets come with. Here's the one i got, only cost £25 too.
That will allow you to fine tune the levels on individual speakers and their exact crossover frequencies. You'd only need one of these if the amplifier you go with does not have one built in.
As for speakers you can get almost anything, if you get an active cross over. Just look through the thiele small parameters and get what-ever is best specified. Just pay attention to basket/magnet sizes as the speakers may not fit in the stock holes. As for subs, i built myself my own 6 years ago for my home cinema, using a 10" driver and a 42 litre cabinet with a port tuned to 35hz. Have to say it is surprising how good it sounds with virtually all types of music, even classical. I won't bother saying who makes the drive unit, but i will say that it has astonishing sound quality for the price i paid, and it has lasted 6 years permanently on without any issues. (it even came complete with a full spec sheet including thiele small parameters, which is very rare these days, TBH i like it that much i've been trying to find another one, damn shame they stopped making them) Best thing to look for is large x-max (cone excursion) large surround, without any fancy shapes molded into it and make sure the surround is made of butyl rubber or similar. (much hardier than that foam crap they sometimes use, i've had a foam surround disintegrate with age)
As said somewhere above, for a really good system you'll need to have a fair amount of sound deadening material fitted, to reduce the amount of external noise.
With respect to cables so long as pre-amp phonos are shielded and routed as far from the power cables as possible you'll be fine. Amplifiers really need a minimum of 8 gauge cable, especially if talking 30amp or higher fusing, same thickness cable is needed to earth the system. You can use the same speaker cable that you use in the house for the hi-fi, though it doesn't need to be expensive just make sure the cables are routed away from power cables again.
Hope this helps.
The THD levels are way too high:
50 watts RMS x 4 channels + 150 watts RMS x 1 channels at 4 ohms and ≤ 1% THD + Noise 60 watts x 4 + 300 watts x 1 at 2 ohms, 14.4V supply and ≤ 1% THD + N2
≤ 1% is far too high, which is the main problem with the car amps today. My old alpine 3552 has complete full specifications regarding power:distortion, and to be honest its the best car amp i've ever heard. (35w x4 at 0.04% THD) You can probably get better than this, but i very much doubt that it'll be in the form of a brand new amplifier. Your NAD C320BEE runs at 0.03% THD which is excellent, so as you can imagine that infinity isn't going to be a patch on your NAD. Going for an external amp is a good idea as the amplifiers built into the headunits are even worse.
My advice would be to look at second hand amplifiers that are slightly older since they were built around sound quality rather than giant power outputs. The V12 series alpines have almost always run at 0.08% THD, the newer PDX alpines are like everything else these days (circa 1%) so avoid them aswell. The best alpines have just a four digit number with no three letter code. (I only really know alpine, but i know that there are other brands that are equal or better, but i'm working on max sound quality minimum cost. Got all three of my alpines for less than £70 (two 4 channel and one 5 channel), although i inherited the 3552 which i am keeping as a spare at the moment as it needs some new parts for the switch mode psu)
Have a look on ampguts to get an idea of specs. (most of these are accurate, but some are missing spec)
Another thing to look for if you're after good sound quality is an active cross over to replace those passive ones that component speaker sets come with. Here's the one i got, only cost £25 too.
That will allow you to fine tune the levels on individual speakers and their exact crossover frequencies. You'd only need one of these if the amplifier you go with does not have one built in.
As for speakers you can get almost anything, if you get an active cross over. Just look through the thiele small parameters and get what-ever is best specified. Just pay attention to basket/magnet sizes as the speakers may not fit in the stock holes. As for subs, i built myself my own 6 years ago for my home cinema, using a 10" driver and a 42 litre cabinet with a port tuned to 35hz. Have to say it is surprising how good it sounds with virtually all types of music, even classical. I won't bother saying who makes the drive unit, but i will say that it has astonishing sound quality for the price i paid, and it has lasted 6 years permanently on without any issues. (it even came complete with a full spec sheet including thiele small parameters, which is very rare these days, TBH i like it that much i've been trying to find another one, damn shame they stopped making them) Best thing to look for is large x-max (cone excursion) large surround, without any fancy shapes molded into it and make sure the surround is made of butyl rubber or similar. (much hardier than that foam crap they sometimes use, i've had a foam surround disintegrate with age)
As said somewhere above, for a really good system you'll need to have a fair amount of sound deadening material fitted, to reduce the amount of external noise.
With respect to cables so long as pre-amp phonos are shielded and routed as far from the power cables as possible you'll be fine. Amplifiers really need a minimum of 8 gauge cable, especially if talking 30amp or higher fusing, same thickness cable is needed to earth the system. You can use the same speaker cable that you use in the house for the hi-fi, though it doesn't need to be expensive just make sure the cables are routed away from power cables again.
Hope this helps.
Soldato
- Joined
- 18 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 3,497
- Location
- Harlow, Essex
Pioneer DEH-P5100UB £169.99
JL Audio 12W0v2 £89.99
JL Audio Evolution TR650Csi £107.99
Hertz EP4 £195.49
CAD JWB12 12" Sealed Enclosure £29.49
Sub-Total: £592.95
Thats what i would get with that money
JL Audio 12W0v2 £89.99
JL Audio Evolution TR650Csi £107.99
Hertz EP4 £195.49
CAD JWB12 12" Sealed Enclosure £29.49
Sub-Total: £592.95
Thats what i would get with that money
Many thanks for the excellent reply Kei. I did look at the THD of the amp and wonder if it was a bit high but didn't realise my NAD amp was h. I am liking the idea of getting a the older amps. Don't look as good in the boot, but built for good sound. 
I think I will pick up the HU and facia so I can at least get my Zune connected and then start looking at speakers plus amp? The HU above looks very good with the 7 band EQ.
I think I will pick up the HU and facia so I can at least get my Zune connected and then start looking at speakers plus amp? The HU above looks very good with the 7 band EQ.
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Irony has it i like the simple style to the older alpine amplifiers. Just plain black with some white writing and an LED suits me. No fancy blue leds/neons everywhere and silver paintwork that gets battered.
Anyway, the headunit should in theory be the most expensive bit, just get anyone with 4 pre-amp phono outputs along with all the features that you want/require. The pre-amp outs cut out most of the crap thats in the headunit anyhow, but a good internal DSP can go along way for good sound quality.
With speakers you really don't need to spend the earth, just remember that with quite a lot of these car speakers you are paying plenty of money just for the brand name. I built all my systems by buying everything individually and building it myself. (which can cost less than half as much as a branded set, maybe even more) Seriously look at actual hi-fi drive-units as a viable alternative. You can get an excellent 6.5" woofer for about £20-30, then you can get a pair of tweeters to match the others.
Best to look for speakers that have a resonant frequency within the range that you are looking for, along with as high a sensitivity figure as possible. With sensitivity figures, they will be rated at a specific DB output at 1w, try to keep all the speakers within a small margin of one another. If there is a big sensitivity difference it'll mean one pair of speakers will be a lot more efficient than the rest making that pair louder for the same power input. (you'd have to tune the gain on the channel to adjust for it) My front speakers are 3-way with 1" tweeters, 3.5" mids and 5.25" lows. Total cost for the lot £35 admittedly the 5.25" are second hand but they are Alpine classics that came from alpine's better days.
With sub-woofers, they really need a well designed cabinet. Those JL subs are overpriced for what they are. Get a decent specification 10" sub (The older Alpine Type R subs were quite good, where the rubber surround is more solid)
Put it into a large volume cabinet and port it. I'll even offer you the design i used for my own, though you would have to build it yourself
The dividing network i posted about earlier is still what i'd recommend as it cuts out having components inline with the speakers, like passive crossovers and bass-blocking capacitors. This should in theory result in cleaner sound, especially in the higher frequencies. Alpine V12 amps have adjustable crossovers built-in saving you the need to get a separate crossover.
Anyway, the headunit should in theory be the most expensive bit, just get anyone with 4 pre-amp phono outputs along with all the features that you want/require. The pre-amp outs cut out most of the crap thats in the headunit anyhow, but a good internal DSP can go along way for good sound quality.
With speakers you really don't need to spend the earth, just remember that with quite a lot of these car speakers you are paying plenty of money just for the brand name. I built all my systems by buying everything individually and building it myself. (which can cost less than half as much as a branded set, maybe even more) Seriously look at actual hi-fi drive-units as a viable alternative. You can get an excellent 6.5" woofer for about £20-30, then you can get a pair of tweeters to match the others.
Best to look for speakers that have a resonant frequency within the range that you are looking for, along with as high a sensitivity figure as possible. With sensitivity figures, they will be rated at a specific DB output at 1w, try to keep all the speakers within a small margin of one another. If there is a big sensitivity difference it'll mean one pair of speakers will be a lot more efficient than the rest making that pair louder for the same power input. (you'd have to tune the gain on the channel to adjust for it) My front speakers are 3-way with 1" tweeters, 3.5" mids and 5.25" lows. Total cost for the lot £35 admittedly the 5.25" are second hand but they are Alpine classics that came from alpine's better days.
With sub-woofers, they really need a well designed cabinet. Those JL subs are overpriced for what they are. Get a decent specification 10" sub (The older Alpine Type R subs were quite good, where the rubber surround is more solid)
Put it into a large volume cabinet and port it. I'll even offer you the design i used for my own, though you would have to build it yourself
The dividing network i posted about earlier is still what i'd recommend as it cuts out having components inline with the speakers, like passive crossovers and bass-blocking capacitors. This should in theory result in cleaner sound, especially in the higher frequencies. Alpine V12 amps have adjustable crossovers built-in saving you the need to get a separate crossover.
Soldato
- Joined
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- Posts
- 20,160
- Location
- Woburn Sand Dunes
that probably translates in to 35w rms at <0.1% anyway, and visa versa your alpine probably manages 50W rms at <1%. only difference being the specs are more inflated on the infinity. distortion figures are very hard to compare across different manufacturers anyway, and arent nessaserily any indication of an amps musical performance - you only have to compare my onkyo 805 to that nad to apriciate this - the onkyo does not out pace the nad with music, despite managing 2-3 times more output per channel with a lower quoted distortion figure.
however, that said, when you see enflated figures like those on the infinity it is normally a sign of inflation elsewhere - normally the performance in general. if people dont quote proper figures (ie power in to 8, 4 and 2 ohm at no more that 0.1% distortion) then i'd avoid them anyway. note i am not knocking the old alpine - they are some of the best amps you could get your hands on, even today.
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Good budget speakers, and great budget amps. I use one myself to drive my rears. But if you're an audiophile after high quality, then in my opinion, they don't cut it.
Ant
Surprisingly they do have high wattage rms ratings, whether to be believed or not is the other matter...
The Vibe SEK-60 components do sound good, but I must stress try and get some dynamat/soundproofing if your going to amp some components because they will sound farty as I've found...
The Space subs aint too bad though.