Cellfactor and Physx

Rroff · 13 May 2007 at 14:23

raja said:
I played this game on my oc'ed quad with no performance loss as I had it clocked to 3.9ghz! and a single 8800gtx, I will try the fluid version in SLI and see what happens...

Actually your quad core _should_ just about be able to handle the cloth effects _if_ they have multi threaded the game properly (which they probably haven't as they want you to get a PPU) however fluid dynamics are probably beyond the scope even of a quad as you have a lot more per surface interactions to deal with.

Rroff · 13 May 2007 at 14:29

Nymins said:
The FPS didn't go down on that demo. Every video i have seen including the home-made Youtube one's using Fraps running at a good consistant speed with zero slow down.

There wasn't any noticeable slowdowns - but expand to a game sized scenario based on the performance of that one demo and you'd see you wouldn't get very good performance in a game...

Marc Fraser · 13 May 2007 at 16:10

Rroff said:
It pulled the FPS right down, and it was quite constrained to a box... plus it was mostly just a water shader and not full on liquid modelling...

A CPU could do physics very well... IF... it wasn't also running the rest of the PC - this is the key point - the other work load plus various latency/buffer issues due to the way its working to run your OS, handle the rest of the hardware, etc. means it doesn't work very well for physics processing, put your CPU on an addon board just doing physics and oh hello ageia...

Do you have any evidence to back this up?

From what I have seen and read a general purpose CPU is not as well suited to running physics calculations as a PPU or GPU as they are designed in totally different ways. If you have evidence to the contrary I would be very interested in seeing it.

Rroff said:
Actually your quad core _should_ just about be able to handle the cloth effects _if_ they have multi threaded the game properly (which they probably haven't as they want you to get a PPU) however fluid dynamics are probably beyond the scope even of a quad as you have a lot more per surface interactions to deal with.

The Physx API which the game uses to simulate physics is multithreaded so should take full advantage of a quad core CPU. Unless you are accusing Ageia of not programming it correctly to take advantage of multicore CPU's. This would be an incredibly stupid thing for Ageia to do as it would mean the performance of their API without a PPU would be much worse than Havok which would not make the API look very good to developers. I would assume the majority of their income comes from licensing the API to developers rather than PPU sales.

Pottsey · 13 May 2007 at 17:06

“_if_ they have multi threaded the game properly (which they probably haven't as they want you to get a PPU)”
Marc Fraser is right. It would be a very stupid move not to make the game multi threaded and make the API slow in software on purpose. Ageia get most of there money by selling there Physic API for use in games for people who don’t have a PPU. It would hurt them badly if they made the API slow on the CPU.

That and the benchmarks show it is using and benefiting from dual cores. That increase you get from dual core shows it’s coded pretty well for them.

Chronictank · 13 May 2007 at 17:17

Out of curiosity why dont manufacturers just implement it so that one core on a GPU or even a seperate processor on a gfx card is reserved for physics and the rest work as usual :S, i really cant see the need for a seperate card when it can all be done on one or is it limited by the bandwidth on a pcie bus?

Firegod · 13 May 2007 at 17:45

Chronictank said:
Out of curiosity why dont manufacturers just implement it so that one core on a GPU or even a seperate processor on a gfx card is reserved for physics and the rest work as usual :S, i really cant see the need for a seperate card when it can all be done on one or is it limited by the bandwidth on a pcie bus?

Well Alan Wake will be like this. The physics is off-loaded onto one of the other cores. Video on YouTube I think showing it all working on a Quadcore.

Pottsey · 13 May 2007 at 17:59

“Out of curiosity why dont manufacturers just implement it so that one core on a GPU or even a seperate processor on a gfx card”
There are 12+ cores in a PPU its not going be easy to fit that onto a GPU. Physics processing needs very little bandwidth across the PCI/E ports. But it does need a lot of internal bandwidth more then a GPU provides.

Chronictank · 13 May 2007 at 18:04

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OF9qoWKNbA&mode=related&search=

^^
Looks pretty good to me

Pottsey · 13 May 2007 at 18:49

“Looks pretty good to me ”
I think a lot of people are getting caught up in the graphics. Physics wise that was pretty basic. There no demanding physics, no mass amount of objects just a hand full of objects sucked into the tornado no different from other games.

What was so impressive about it? I cannot help but think if that’s the best you can get with a full core on physics then it shows a CPU is not enough.

Greenboi · 13 May 2007 at 18:57

The point he was trying to get across was the fact to do such things, a pu isnt needed...there is NO slowdown whatsoever with the cpu handling physics that look great

In Cellfactor: Revolution, they have a heap of boxes in the middle of the arena....why? To make the game lag like hell when around them and when theyre moving... so imho i think it has been coded to make people buy it in the thought that its neeeeeeeeded to play the game.

queamin · 13 May 2007 at 19:02

the cpu handling physics that look great

i want physics to be more than eye candy

Pottsey · 13 May 2007 at 19:06

“The point he was trying to get across was the fact to do such things, a pu isnt needed...there is NO slowdown whatsoever with the cpu handling physics that look great”
It might look great but only because that’s all you’re used to.
Just like DX7 games used to look great until you watched dx9 games.

If you want to see new high end physics you need to move physics to a PPU or GPU. There are tons of physics effects that you cannot do on the CPU that will change gameplay and make games look better.

Yes there was no slowdown but physics wise it was no better then 7 year old games. So you wouldn’t expect slow down.

"In Cellfactor: Revolution, they have a heap of boxes in the middle of the arena....why?
It was far more then just heap of box’s. As for why didnt you play the game! psi powers explain why.

SOLDNER-MOFO64 · 13 May 2007 at 19:16

I agree. Once you've seen Cell Factor run on HIGH settings, with maximum physx.....most will understand that comments on PPU's being worthless are as dumb as sayin' RAM is over-rated..lol

Greenboi · 13 May 2007 at 19:57

Did i hit a nerve? :rolleyes:

I think the physics in cellfactor are okay, but NOT worth £120 when havok looks just as good

I also never said the ppu drops your fps at all, perhaps you should learn to read before jumping the gun, eh?

I just said without it the games run cack...which in fairness, they do... and i know why that is, the cpu cannot handle the sheer amount of work that a ppu can handle when doing physics. I know this, but i mean, i, PERSONALLY, would slap myself to death if i prated with £120 at this stage in the PPUs life for a few games that agin, in MY opinion, arent that good.

I, and others, save for CPU/GPU because, unlike Physx, those two are used for every game, so you cant say that its pointless.

If the game devs actually wanted to use physx, they would...but again, i guess havok is doing a good enough job for now, otherwise, wouldnt they all be using ageias products, hm? And what if, just what if, they looked at the amount of people who actually bought one outside of pre-build gaming systems and thought "Not enough people use one, im not gunna try using physx since people will moan that they have to spend an extra £120 just to play the game.."

CellFactor: Revolution has great graphics too, so again, if we skimped back on buying good GPU's/CPUs, then the game would run bad anyway..

I dunno, some people seem to love this, while others hate it. In theory its a good idea, but in reality...ageia need to get more game support on the more popular titles

Rroff · 13 May 2007 at 20:27

Problem is... people see the kinda physics effects that are typical in games NOW and think thats all there is to it, so deride the PPU without realising its potential... but they also have a point... theres no point buying a PPU right now when games don't make enough use of it to justify the price tag... and games aren't gonna make heavy use of it when that would restrict them to a small audience... its a bit of a catch 22 and theres gonna have to be some compromise before PPUs will catch on...

Chronictank · 13 May 2007 at 21:15

Pottsey said:
“The point he was trying to get across was the fact to do such things, a pu isnt needed...there is NO slowdown whatsoever with the cpu handling physics that look great”
It might look great but only because that’s all you’re used to.
Just like DX7 games used to look great until you watched dx9 games.

If you want to see new high end physics you need to move physics to a PPU or GPU. There are tons of physics effects that you cannot do on the CPU that will change gameplay and make games look better.

Yes there was no slowdown but physics wise it was no better then 7 year old games. So you wouldn’t expect slow down.

I understand this, but unlike yourself i am looking it at the pov of joe random who doesnt care about how a game works, or how a piece of debris ricochets off a wall at the precise angle it would in the real world. What they care about is how the games look and feel, which at the moment, all the games using physx cards havent impressed me particularly.

There is no "wow" factor that would compell me to buy the card like there was when dx 9 and now 10 visually or those additional effects in FEAR and HL2 that would compell someone who has little/no techincal knowledge to part their cash. THAT is the problem, (not refering to your quote but a later one), not that people here are berating the card before trying it because at the end of the day 99% of consumers dont read this or any other tech forums because they simply want to install a game put in whatever card is recommended and expect it to work at the intended quality.

Until such a title arrives that show cases Physx to the extent where it is significantly noticable then it is a rather futile argument as the general public wont buy it. This added to the fact that if it was indeed that good, major manufacturers like Nvidia and Ati would be making cards with their own version of the card built into their graphic solutions or release rivals

SOLDNER-MOFO64 · 13 May 2007 at 21:39

Greenboi said:
Did i hit a nerve?

I think the physics in cellfactor are okay, but NOT worth £120 when havok looks just as good

I also never said the ppu drops your fps at all, perhaps you should learn to read before jumping the gun, eh? I just said without it the games run cack...which in fairness, they do... and i know why that is, the cpu cannot handle the sheer amount of work that a ppu can handle when doing physics. I know this, but i mean, i, PERSONALLY, would slap myself to death if i prated with £120 at this stage in the PPUs life for a few games that agin, in MY opinion, arent that good.

That's the whole point. You act like it's 120quid to play Cell Factor. In reality it's an investment. You would play more than that on it. You'd still have it in 3-4yrs..say 2yrs for arguments sake. £60 a year to add all those extra physics to games...all those that exist and all those created in the next two years. If I said go buy an 8800GTX for CRYTEK only, that too would be a waste...if the majority of the time you played MOHAA...wouldn't it? I guess though you'd probably seek out games that test your G80 wouldn't u? Same with an AGEIA. 20 or so games now.....and if people embraced the technology then there would be a whole lot more.

I, and others, save for CPU/GPU because, unlike Physx, those two are used for every game, so you cant say that its pointless.

I didn't say it was pointless. I said you should save for something other than. Did you learn to read at my school?

If the game devs actually wanted to use physx, they would...but again, i guess havok is doing a good enough job for now, otherwise, wouldnt they all be using ageias products, hm?

No....and here's your answer why.....

"Not enough people use one, im not gunna try using physx since people will moan that they have to spend an extra £120 just to play the game.."

I dunno, some people seem to love this, while others hate it. In theory its a good idea, but in reality...ageia need to get more game support on the more popular titles

Perhaps one way to accomplish this would be to have more people dig deep and buy one of the friggin' things. No-one's gonna buy a physics game without a PPU, so no games have heavy physics.....no games have 'em then why buy them...like the last guy says...catch 22. There's only one way to get out of it.....buy them. Not buying things doesn't make them cheaper...it makes them not exist.

Pottsey · 13 May 2007 at 21:42

“This added to the fact that if it was indeed that good, major manufacturers like Nvidia and Ati would be making cards with their own version of the card built into their graphic solutions or release rivals”
Nvidia and Ati are making there own versions. Hardware phsyics is the way forward and sooner or later the CPU will not be doing physics in most games.

ATI’s next card is meant to have physics acceleration built into it and the Nvidia 8800 already has hardware physic support. I only know of one title due out thats useing it but that could change.

No argument from me that right now 99% of consumers don’t need a PPU or hardware physics acceleration. Hopefully that will change once lots of people have hardware physics acceleration we should see a lot of new fun stuff.

Margaret · 13 May 2007 at 23:09

Pottsey said:
The cloths and liquids are very demanding and cannot be done at fast speeds on the CPU. From technology point of view the physics are amazing as they run at playable speeds and contain physics we haven’t seen in none PPU games. You might not like them but that’s something else altogether.

The Cloth in one of the Cell Factor levels was nothing special....at all.
I can't even notice these "liquids" I didn't see anything special in Cell Factor, just a resource hog.

The Halk · 14 May 2007 at 01:56

Pottsey said:
“This added to the fact that if it was indeed that good, major manufacturers like Nvidia and Ati would be making cards with their own version of the card built into their graphic solutions or release rivals”
Nvidia and Ati are making there own versions. Hardware phsyics is the way forward and sooner or later the CPU will not be doing physics in most games.

ATI’s next card is meant to have physics acceleration built into it and the Nvidia 8800 already has hardware physic support. I only know of one title due out thats useing it but that could change.

No argument from me that right now 99% of consumers don’t need a PPU or hardware physics acceleration. Hopefully that will change once lots of people have hardware physics acceleration we should see a lot of new fun stuff.

My 8800 has hardware physics in it? Never knew that!

Is it any good, as in up to the spec of the standalone cards?

I always thought physics cards were just someone jumping on the bandwagon and saying "Damnit hardly anyone buys soundcards now, we need to sell something new that'll get em all upgrading!"