China

[jezsoup]

Yesterday in Bradford town centre there was a display put by a couple of Falun Gong men. The display and leaflets they were giving out were highlighting what the Chinese government was really.

After talking with the guys for a short while and reading their stand I was left in total disbelief. What left me more shocked was the fact that the acions of the Chinese government arnt exactly secret or hidden from western powers. Yet what do we do?

The following link gives examples of the various tortures used, and recent (past 5-6 years) victims, It it quite graphic some of the explanation, I will remove if its deemed as unsuitable for here.

http://www.faluninfo.net/gallery/default.asp

http://www.faluninfo.net/torturemethods2/


Plenty more can be found with a quick Google.

The numbers mentioned on the site may seem relatively small (3000). But this is just the tip of one iceberg.

Ive met a few Chinese Christians who have suffered greatly at the hands of the Communist party, one being Brother Yun, I recommend his book for an insight into what people face in China. Again this is just the tip of yet another iceberg.

Why doesnt the west try and do something significant?
Why does the west support China so much in lgiht of their appauling human rights record (not to mention everything else!)?
Why the hell have we let them have the olympic games?!

 

[Jaap74]

they are too big to take on and there is too much trade done with them..... also the Americans are busy chasing oil elsewhere........

 

[ScarySquirrel]

The logo of Falun Gong is basically a backwards swastika? Whats that all about?

Isn't the logo originally a Christian symbol? Sorry to go off topic slightly

 

["andy"]

i can see a nuke heading that way or out of that way soon to be honest :/

 

[Van Hellseek]

n/m

 

[jezsoup]

they are too big to take on and there is too much trade done with them..... also the Americans are busy chasing oil elsewhere........

Yes we depend on them, but they also depend on us!

What would happen if we were to stop trading with China, or start cutting back massively, sourcing just as cheap, or almost as cheap goods from other places like India?

China also depend on us for other things, not just trade. Where does China buy a large proportion of its high grade steels (as they done have the ability to produce their own)? The Uk, particularly Corus. And on the flip side of that where do we in the UK buy most of our mild steel from? China, yes it is of **** poor quality but we still buy it, what would happen if we turned round and went right we arnt selling you our steel or buying yours. Yes I know its highly unlikely anything of the sort will happen but why shouldnt we? Granted steel prices may increase a bit, but UK employment may just increase.

As I said in my OP why on earth have we given them the olympic games, should countries boycott the olympics?

 

[XPE]

After talking with the guys for a short while and reading their stand I was left in total disbelief. What left me more shocked was the fact that the acions of the Chinese government arnt exactly secret or hidden from western powers. Yet what do we do?

The western governments allow companies to shut down factories and move work over there.


[Sarcasm] Yea that will show them [/Sarcasm]

 

[CryptKeeper]

I went to Shanghai last Summer and did an internship for a French company out there. By far the best experience of my life. It truly is a fascinating place. Maybe I got brainwashed, I dunno , but I begun to view democracy in a different light. I once thought of it all as black and white (black being China, White being the West). Now its more shades of grey. There isn't so much difference between our countries any more. And the gap is becomming narrower.

Sure China has in the past, and probably still does use torture on various people including political prisoners. But I'm pretty sure the UK does the same and we know that the CIA uses washboarding on some of its prisoners. The extent to which methods are used is anyones guess. I doubt anyone can really compare the countries in the way.

Throughout history, if a government has been corrupt and not serverd its people, revolution has followed. Yet opposition against the communist party within China is minimal. People seem to like the government these days because its lead by some very intelligent and smart people (AKA not Mao). I would much rather trust the ruling of my country (UK) to the current Chinese govt than the the Bush administration for example.

Its possible to come up with arguments against all of what I've said. I know because I used to believe them. But being on the other side of the fence for a while lets you see things in a whole new light. The Western media is actually quite bias when it comes to China. Don't get me wrong, CCTV is probably the most bias govt TV in the world, but it does help your challenge your own opinions and views which you previously regarded as fact.

China is not wanting to milk their economy to prepare to take over the world. They are not a bunch of evil commies either. They are very similar to Europeans, in certain behavioural aspects. Much more so than our "allies" the Japanese.

 

[Jet]

Why doesnt the west try and do something significant?
Why does the west support China so much in lgiht of their appauling human rights record (not to mention everything else!)?
Why the hell have we let them have the olympic games?!

Look what happened when we tried to do something about Saddam. Who had done a lot worse.

People don't really care as long as their safe.

 

[jezsoup]

The western governments allow companies to shut down factories and move work over there.


[Sarcasm] Yea that will show them [/Sarcasm]

This annoys me something chronic too. Western companies dont give a **** as long as they make a quick bit of cash, and there is nothign I can do about it. As said before wetern governments dont want to say anything as we depend too much of China plus Chinas a bit too much of a big fish for us to fry, so to speak. All they ever do (if anything) if at a press conference give them a verbal slap on the wrist, reminds me a of something Eddie Izzard sad,

Eddie: Pol Pot killed one point seven million Cambodians, died under house arrest, well done there. Stalin killed many millions, died in his bed, aged seventy-two, well done indeed. And the reason we let them get away with it is they killed their own people. And we're sort of fine with that. Hitler killed people next door. Oh, stupid man. After a couple of years we won’t stand for that, will we?

 

[jezsoup]

Look what happened when we tried to do something about Saddam. Who had done a lot worse.

People don't really care as long as their safe.

Done a lot worse... thats debatable!


There are ways and means we could try change how China treats its citizens without sending our army in.

 

[Vonhelmet]

We need China, because they make practically everything. Cut links with China, and world trade will as good as stop.

 

[yak.h'cir]

I think China is changing quite a lot for the better quite quickly. I spent a month there recently and many people quite openly follow many different religions. There are a whole mannor of various churchs all over the place. The chinese government also paid for the visas and flights of any muslims wanting to goto mecca on the pilgrimage thingy, not even the UK does that!

From what i've heard the Falun Gong is the only banned group/religion in China, but in someplaces it is 'tolerated'. In the past from what i've read what the Chinese have done to them is about as bad as it gets. So I would take what there followers here say about them now with a pinch of salt, just because it used to happen doesnt mean its still happening now. Whilst I was in a place called Leijing (South West China) I saw a Falun Gong school (next to a police station, so I suppose they were being watched) and I have pictures too which i'll post when i get home (on thursday).

I'm sure a lot of it is just PR for the upcoming games, but I believe China is heading in the right direction.

 

[Spuds]

Isn't the logo originally a Christian symbol? Sorry to go off topic slightly

Hindu/Buddist, although somewhat ironically within the Abrahamic religions it's sometimes considered a good luck symbol.

Back on topic, western governments have long been supporters of countries with appalling human rights records. The British government was a big supporter of Hitler before he invaded Poland. We're also quite friendly with Saudi Arabia despite their record of torture, from memory mostly aimed at homosexuals.

I've never been a big fan of democracy, but at the minute it's probably the best form of government we have.

 

[jezsoup]

I went to Shanghai last Summer and did an internship for a French company out there.... There isn't so much difference between our countries any more. And the gap is becomming narrower.

The difference bewteen Shanghai and the West is becoming narrower, a lot of what you read about that I posted aobut doesnt go on in the big cities, and if it does its certainly kept out of the public eye.

Sure China has in the past, and probably still does use torture on various people including political prisoners. But I'm pretty sure the UK does the same and we know that the CIA uses washboarding on some of its prisoners. The extent to which methods are used is anyones guess. I doubt anyone can really compare the countries in the way.

Yes you can compare countries, torture shouldnt be used, but the ones used by the CIA are quite different to ones employed by China.

Taken from the site I mentioned in my OP, this is only 3 years ago....

In the summer of 2003, the Gaoyang Forced Labour Camp began force-feeding Falun Gong practitioners with human urine and excrement; the government awarded them for this innovation, and sent labour camp staff from around the country to learn this procedure.

You assume the UK does the same, please provide a shread or two of evidence for this.

Throughout history, if a government has been corrupt and not serverd its people, revolution has followed. Yet opposition against the communist party within China is minimal.

Ever thought this could be due to the fear that the cummunist party instills on their people? The poor are oppressed so much by the communists that if they wanted to revolt they wouldnt have the ability or money to do it, the poor are kept in abject poverty.

Western media is actually quite bias when it comes to China.

The worst thats shown is the possile organ harvesting, they hardly mention he thosands of people illegally imprisoned, tourtured and killed simply for their belief.

They are not a bunch of evil commies either. They are very similar to Europeans

Yes they are a bunch of evil commies and no they are not like other European countries. Shanghai may not seem to be ruled be evil commies, the big buisness certainly wont feel like they are, the government likes them.

European countries dont go round raping, torturing and killing just because someone has turned round and questioned. European countries dont go round raping, torturing and killing on the grounds of someones religion.

 

[jezsoup]

We need China, because they make practically everything. Cut links with China, and world trade will as good as stop.

Yes if you cut it off over night... We managaed before without sucha huge reliance on them. Even if we refused to invest any more money in buisness over there or refused to move work over to China it would make a huge difference.

Before China became what it was we used to make things over here ourselves, we could always look at doing some of them again...

 

[jezsoup]

I think China is changing quite a lot for the better quite quickly. I spent a month there recently and many people quite openly follow many different religions. There are a whole mannor of various churchs all over the place. The chinese government also paid for the visas and flights of any muslims wanting to goto mecca on the pilgrimage thingy, not even the UK does that!

From what i've heard the Falun Gong is the only banned group/religion in China, but in someplaces it is 'tolerated'. In the past from what i've read what the Chinese have done to them is about as bad as it gets. So I would take what there followers here say about them now with a pinch of salt, just because it used to happen doesnt mean its still happening now. Whilst I was in a place called Leijing (South West China) I saw a Falun Gong school (next to a police station, so I suppose they were being watched) and I have pictures too which i'll post when i get home (on thursday).

I'm sure a lot of it is just PR for the upcoming games, but I believe China is heading in the right direction.

China seem to be very good at putting on a very nice facade to the west. Many other religions are banned, true Christianity is banned, they have their own state sanctioned church which is run by the commies and theonly Bible allowed is one whee the government has gone through and pulled out various passages for various reasons. The practice of real Christianity in China will have you tortured and killed, see the link in my OP to the book Heavenly Man.

Im not taking any of those reports I have read on the site with any salt, or taking any reports I was told first hand on Saturday with any salt? Why I saw his wounds they were less than a year old, he only showed me the burn marks on his arms and legs, and I coudl clearly see the scares on his face and the lack of teeth. He said he had many more over his body.

Chinas heading in the right direction? Did you miss the story in the news not too long abck about China making thes execution coaches? And all the allegations of organ harvesting??

 

["andy"]

theyre basically setting themselves up so that they dont need anything from the rest of the world.


and doing a good job of it !

 

[PardonTheWait]

The logo of Falun Gong is basically a backwards swastika? Whats that all about?

Isn't the logo originally a Christian symbol? Sorry to go off topic slightly

Buddhist, among other things. A lot of faiths use it, that direction is the buddhist way I believe.

 

[yak.h'cir]

China seem to be very good at putting on a very nice facade to the west. Many other religions are banned, true Christianity is banned, they have their own state sanctioned church which is run by the commies and theonly Bible allowed is one whee the government has gone through and pulled out various passages for various reasons. The practice of real Christianity in China will have you tortured and killed, see the link in my OP to the book Heavenly Man.

They are definetly putting on a show for the west, but it goes deeper than that. I too had heard all the stories about no bibles etc, but there simply not true anymore. I was able to take mine in for one thing, and all you have to do is go into a book shop to see many different religious texts, I'm no expert but I doubt they would all have been doctored to fit in. The only
book that I heard of being a problem was the lonely planets guide to China. My friend had one confiscated due to the map showing Taiwaan as a seperate country.

Im not taking any of those reports I have read on the site with any salt, or taking any reports I was told first hand on Saturday with any salt? Why I saw his wounds they were less than a year old, he only showed me the burn marks on his arms and legs, and I coudl clearly see the scares on his face and the lack of teeth. He said he had many more over his body.

Well it sounds like you've just heard one side of the story and refuse to believe it could not be true. Who knows what happened to him/what he did to deserve it. Was it state sanctioned? The only thing I can suggest to you is goto China and look for yourself. If you speak to the people you'll soon find out how fast China has changed.

Chinas heading in the right direction? Did you miss the story in the news not too long abck about China making thes execution coaches? And all the allegations of organ harvesting??

Well to start the execution coaches were brought in to bring them more in line with the west. Before people were executed by gun, now its injection. If people commit serious crimes why should a country have to pay a fortune to keep them alive in prision. I've heard many people advocating the death penalty being brought back in this country so I wouldnt be too fast to condeme a country for using it. It is a sore point with China though, as I know in the past there were executions for opposing the government. I think his is why they are in such a rush to finish off their 'waiting list' before the games start.

Havent heard about organ havesting but wouldnt be supprised, it goes on all over the world! But I imagine it would happen more in China because of the relutance of the population to join donor schemes.