Chip & Pin - different name?

pmbuzz said:
How would you get a "criminal record" through myself or my partner using each others' cards ?

Ya Jobsworth !!

:p
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fraud. liability. its one of those cases were SO many people do it that you fell like a fool just because you are trying to follow the law on this. the fact of the matter is, you shouldnt be doing it. your behind the counter and you refuse a sale because the customer isnt using his own card and what happens? said customer calls you a jobsworth. its like fuel cards. companies know damn well that the majority of fuel cards are issued for one vehicle and one vehicle only. it even says that on the card. wrong registration? dont get authorised. SO many people do it though and in so many places that your left thinking 'what can i do about it?' you follow the rules, and customers go ape ****. customer's always right, eh?
 
Jet said:
My post was regarding the shops liability for prosecution not the individual.

In any case I'd find it hard to believe it's fraud for the individual since there is no dishonesty. The other person will, in 99% of cases, have given permission for the person to use the card.

Irrelevant of whether its legal or not though, who cares? It doesn't matter if it's easy to obtain another card on the account. It isn't harming anyone so why be difficult and annoy people for no reason?

If there was more than a 1% chance that there was a crime being committed in each case I could understand but there isn't so why bother?
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It's illegal, which is the most pertinent point. Do you have anything to back up it only being a "1% chance", or is this just in your own imagination? I worked for a bank for 3 years, and I had plenty of customers who had their cards stolen by someone they knew, who also knew their PIN. If a cashier can stop fraud for even one person (even if they were stupid enough to give out their PIN), why shouldn't they?
 
It's not illegal to tell someone your PIN number. It's daft, but not against the law. Doing so means that you will be liable for any fraudulent transactions made against the account for which the card was issued, but it doesn't mean that you go straight to jail, without passing Go and without collecting £200.
 
Plus, I'm pretty sure that a store can refuse to serve you for pretty much any reason they can come up with. Not using a card in your name is a pretty good one.
 
Vixen said:
It's illegal, which is the most pertinent point. Do you have anything to back up it only being a "1% chance", or is this just in your own imagination? I worked for a bank for 3 years, and I had plenty of customers who had their cards stolen by someone they knew, who also knew their PIN. If a cashier can stop fraud for even one person (even if they were stupid enough to give out their PIN), why shouldn't they?
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Is it illegal? I don't think anyone on here knows for sure whether it is. All theft/fraud offences require dishonesty. I.e. would a reasonable person think it was dishonest. Any to me it isn't. These people have permission to use the card.

What about signatures? After working in a shop I can say that imo about 30% of signatures were rubbish and didn't match the card. Since there is a slim chance the card is stolen should I then refuse to accept the sale for 30% of customers? No, because it would be extremely annoying to the customers and the chances of the card being stolen and unreported are slim.

Likewise in this case the chances of the card being stolen and unreported are ridiculously small, especially since chip and pin was introduced.

Say for a second it was illegal. Does it matter? My brother has given me permission to open his mail while he's at uni. Technically, it's illegal to open someone else's mail (iirc), does that mean I should be stopped?

I doubt there has ever been a prosecution on this point so if the police don't care why do shop assistants?
 
I had a customer who went to pay using a card but for some reason the chip wouldnt work so I asked if it was ok for her to sign for it and she replied:

"Oh, i can't, its my husband's card" :rolleyes:

To which I replied

"Do you have a marriage certificate?"

"No"

DENIED
 
Jet said:
Is it illegal? I don't think anyone on here knows for sure whether it is. All theft/fraud offences require dishonesty. I.e. would a reasonable person think it was dishonest. Any to me it isn't. These people have permission to use the card.

What about signatures? After working in a shop I can say that imo about 30% of signatures were rubbish and didn't match the card. Since there is a slim chance the card is stolen should I then refuse to accept the sale for 30% of customers? No, because it would be extremely annoying to the customers and the chances of the card being stolen and unreported are slim.

Likewise in this case the chances of the card being stolen and unreported are ridiculously small, especially since chip and pin was introduced.

Say for a second it was illegal. Does it matter? My brother has given me permission to open his mail while he's at uni. Technically, it's illegal to open someone else's mail (iirc), does that mean I should be stopped?

I doubt there has ever been a prosecution on this point so if the police don't care why do shop assistants?
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When I worked in a supermarket, I always checked signatures on cards, and if they didn't match I was 100% prepared to decline the transaction. If someone can't even sign their own name properly, it's their own fault. I worked in the fraud department of a major UK bank before chip and pin came out, and there was an insane amount of POS fraud back then - I'd definately say that was worth checking signatures. It was also very common at that time for people who had lost a their card to have at least a couple of transaction they hadn't made on their card by the time they reported it gone.

How do you know that someone presenting a card to you has permission to use it? Like most girlfriends, I know my boyfriends PIN for his sole account. That doesn't mean if I took it out his wallet and used it to buy clothes for myself, that he had given me permission to do so. Of course, if I wanted to use his money, I'd use our joint account or ask him to transfer to my own account online. There's really no excuse for using someone elses card when it's so easy to move money between accounts.
 
There is no excuse to be using someone else's card. For our bills and other joint expenditure we have a joint account with our own cards. My missus also has a Halifax One card linked to my account for emergencies. I just don't understand why people are so lazy and can't get their own card for them and their partners instead of moaning.
 
RobH said:
Is it possible to get things like 'Dr', 'Rev', 'Prof' or 'Lord' put on a bank card? I am thinking no but it would be cool :D
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Probably not, due to security issues! If you find a credit card with plain old Mr on it, then you think its a common person, so you will hand it to a bank. If it says something like Lord then you know that hes rich and if your scum you might think "he wont mind losing 100quid"! I personally would hand it back to a bank regardless, but thats because im not scum:)
 
Chip and Pin has changed or by-passed some pieces of legislation on this matter.
Where previously signing a transaction slip meant you were declaring that you are the person named on the card, under chip and pin you appear to be confirming that you have access to the account. In fact, if a chip and pin transaction is made on your card that you did not authorise, you will find it difficult to get any money back from the card provider as under the terms of chip and pin any transactions made under the system are made with the cardholders knowledge, confirmed by the correct entry of the pin. (as expressed by our legal people). The duty of care for the information required to use the system sits almost entirely with the card holder, not the issuer or retailers.
In fact, from personal experience, a lot of employers using the system will not allow staff to handle a chip and pin card ever as an anti-fraud measure.
 
If the card has only a single name on it then it's illegal to use someone else's card, even if it's from a joint account. I know it's become more common to break the rules and accept them since PIN numbers have been around, but retailers absolutely shouldn't do this. It's obviously a dangerous precedent to even think about allowing someone to give you a card that you know isn't theres.
 
FrostedNipple said:
Probably not, due to security issues! If you find a credit card with plain old Mr on it, then you think its a common person, so you will hand it to a bank. If it says something like Lord then you know that hes rich and if your scum you might think "he wont mind losing 100quid"! I personally would hand it back to a bank regardless, but thats because im not scum:)
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you can get Dr put on them.


Going to get it put on one of mine, and leave the other as Mr, for use under differing circumstances.

Lord and such, dunno
 
PinkPig said:
If the card has only a single name on it then it's illegal to use someone else's card, even if it's from a joint account. I know it's become more common to break the rules and accept them since PIN numbers have been around, but retailers absolutely shouldn't do this. It's obviously a dangerous precedent to even think about allowing someone to give you a card that you know isn't theres.
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But, if your card (not a clone) is used with your pin it would be very difficult to prove that you had not permitted its use. Which while in violation of the T&C of your account, is more breach of contract than a criminal matter. Signing someone elses name is clearly fraud, making it easier to prosecute under the old system as false representation at the very least.
Fraud by false representation is defined by Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006 as a case where a person makes "any representation as to fact or law ... express or implied" which they know to be untrue or misleading.
So, is using someones card and pin with their knowledge an offence as stated above?
I entirely understand a retailers view of not wanting to facilitate fraud in this way, and as such understand why they would refuse a card for the reasons mentioned in the thread. My grievance is that nobody, other than the card holder or their representitive, should EVER be able to see, or put themselves in a position where they can see or record (mentally or otherwise), the details of a customers card. A retail employee should never be in a position to know whether or not the card holder is male or female to begin with.
If a checkout operator said to me "I cant take this card, it says Mrs XXXX" I would be incredibly curious as to why they were paying attention to the details printed on the card, when uinder chip and pin they have no legitimate reason to.
 
PinkPig said:
If the card has only a single name on it then it's illegal
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Is it?

Might be against the terms and conditions set by the bank but I think the lack of dishonesty would mean none of the fraud/deception offences apply.
 
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