Christianity and Creationism - some clarification

[spudbynight]

So what meaning exists if the person who sacrifices themselves is also able to ressurect them-self? - that's nothing more than a parlour trick if no real danger exists.

Even accepting this dodgy metaphor it's still supporting the principle of one persons suffering atoning for another's sins.

The trinity concept opens up just as many illogical cans or worms as the human/son of god version.

The pain and suffering was very real. Christianity teaches that Jesus was crucified for all our sins. That even includes you believe it or not. I am puzzled as to what issue you take with Jesus suffering to atone for the sins of all mankind. What is your actual issue with that?

I would like to know as well all about this illogical can of worms you are talking about?

 

[elmarko]

So you wish to convert the minds of 'the ignorant' by taking a stubborn and aggressive attitude? That doesn't seem very sensible to me.

If you wish to educate someone, you should do so politely and with respect.

I'm not trying to convert anybody - that's part of the problem to begin with - I leave that to other groups.

I simply ask questions which force them to address certain logical flaws with that they believe - on the hope they come the sensible conclusion the entire concept is nothing more than an unsupported fairytale (Santa for adults).

 

[elmarko]

You should include yourself in that list.

What are you even gibbering about?.

Do you deny that religious is a root of a large amount of the sexism (Catholicism, Islam), racism (all), homophobia (almost all) & paedophilia in the world? (Catholicism has the top prize for this)

I'm not trying to prove anything - I'm attempting to encourage people to question the damaging medieval belief systems they still hold onto (because it has a real & negative impact on the world today).

 

[Xordium]

I'm not trying to convert anybody - that's part of the problem to begin with - I leave that to other groups.

I simply ask questions which force them to address certain logical flaws with that they believe - on the hope they come the sensible conclusion the entire concept is nothing more than an unsupported fairytale (Santa for adults).

By making sweeping confrontational statements with no basis in fact. Pot, kettle, black. Nietzsche said something you should have paid attention to ...

 

[spudbynight]

What are you even gibbering about?.

Do you deny that religious is a root of a large amount of the sexism (Catholicism, Islam), racism (all), homophobia (almost all) & paedophilia in the world? (Catholicism has the top prize for this)

I would refute all those statements.

I am Catholic and funnily enough I am not sexist, racist, homophobic or a paedophile.

Can we have some sort of evidence to back up your allegations?

 

[RDM]

Do you deny that religious is a root of a large amount of the sexism (Catholicism, Islam), racism (all), homophobia (almost all) & paedophilia in the world? (Catholicism has the top prize for this)

Other than Judaism, which religion is responsible for racism? Most religions seem to be pretty happy to accept any race as it bolsters their numbers. Also it seems by "religion" you actually mean "abrahamic faiths" as you seem to be missing a whole host of religions that are perfectly fine as far as homosexuality goes.

Surely, by ignorantly ascribing negative values to all religions you yourself are displaying signs of bigotry?

 

[Glaucus]

What are you even gibbering about?.

.

I'm saying you are intolerant as those you dispose.
Many religions and more importantly religiuse people have no issues with homosexuality or anything else.
Intact the bible says to allow people to do what they want, just don't do it yourself.

As for racism, LOL.
Pedophilia again LOL, the religion really endorses that doesn't it . Or perhaps it's down to the person doing the act and not the religion.

 

[elmarko]

Troll.

Are you saying that the main Abrahamic religious organisations do not promote sexism, homophobia, racism & are totally innocent of gross paedophilia?

It never ceases to amaze me how religious people are able to "gloss over" the hatred the books they love so much promote.

 

[RDM]

I would refute all those statements.

I am Catholic and funnily enough I am not sexist, racist, homophobic or a paedophile.

Can we have some sort of evidence to back up your allegations?

The Catholic faith is somewhat sexist and homophobic though even if you aren't. The lesser status of women in the church and the various prononcments on homosexuality would be evidence for such.

 

[spudbynight]

Are you saying that the main Abrahamic religious organisations do not promote sexism, homophobia, racism & are totally innocent of gross paedophilia?

It never ceases to amaze me how religious people are able to "gloss over" the hatred the books they love so much promote.

You are the one making wild accusations. Care to expand.

 

[Glaucus]

Who said we are religious and please show me where religions endorse racism or pedophilia.

It's like saying schools endorse pedophilia because there have been several teaches convicted of such crimes.

 

[Xordium]

Are you saying that the main Abrahamic religious organisations do not promote sexism, homophobia, racism & are totally innocent of gross paedophilia?

It never ceases to amaze me how religious people are able to "gloss over" the hatred the books they love so much promote.

I am not religious I like to deal with scientific proof or rather as yet so far unproven. So go ahead and show me the statistics for those assertions from a reputable source. Show me a direct linkage where they have caused what you say.

 

[elmarko]

I'm saying you are intolerant as those you dispose.
Many religions and more importantly religiuse people have no issues with homosexuality or anything else.
Intact the bible says to allow people to do what they want, just don't do it yourself.

As for racism, LOL.
Pedophilia again LOL, the religion really endorses that doesn't it . Or perhaps it's down to the person doing the act and not the religion.

If you think being intolerant of organisations which promote bigotry & hatred is the SAME as biggotry & hatred then you are clearly lacking in the brains department.

Well, in regards to Paedophilia & Catholicism - the pope, the head of the church, coving it up?

 

[Xordium]

the pope, the head of the church, coving it up?

See that's wrong there is was Michelangelo Buonarroti.

 

[Glaucus]

Again that is not the religion it is not the religion endorsing it. It is a man.

Again use the school analogy.

You are the one with hatred and irrationality, you can't justify your position. You can't even debate it.

And the pope talks for all religions does he? There's a lot of religiuse people who do not even associate themselfs with any denomination.

 

[elmarko]

I am not religious I like to deal with scientific proof or rather as yet so far unproven. So go ahead and show me the statistics for those assertions from a reputable source. Show me a direct linkage where they have caused what you say.

Have you ever read a bible?.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_homosexuality

Kuran.

Homosexual acts are condemned as unnatural. (Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you?) 7:80-81

Male homosexual activities are condemned as unnatural. 26:165-6

Male homosexuals commit abominations and act senselessly. 27:54-55

Male homosexuals acts are condemned as unnatural. 29:28-29

Sexism in the bible.

Ezekiel 23:20: There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses[1].

Corinthians, 14:34-35: "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

Exodus 21:7-8: And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her."

Genesis 3:16: "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
"
Genesis 19:8 "Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes"

Leviticus 19:20: "And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free."

Leviticus 27:3-7: "And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver... And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels. And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels. And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. And if it be from sixty years old and above; if it be a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels."
Deuteronomy 22:5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God
Deuteronomy 21:11-14: And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife. Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails. And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will..."
Genesis 25:1 "Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah." [Only problem is that Abraham already had a wife (Sarah), and an abandoned concubine (Hagar).]
26:34, 29:29 "And Esau was forty years old when he took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Bashemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite. ... Then went Esau unto Ishmael, and took unto the wives which he had Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael Abraham's son, the sister of Nebajoth, to be his wife."
Genesis 32:22: "And he rose up that night, and took his two wives, and his two womenservants, "
Genesis 36:6: "And Esau took his wives...."

Infact, read Leviticus.

 

[Glaucus]

I fact learn translation and context and also the difference between people within the religion and people outside the religion. The bible talks a lot about bad things and yet leaving others to there own way.

You should realise something's wrong with your stance, when the people who are arguing against you aren't even religiuse.

 

[Xordium]

/snip

Well take any book and take select passages out and you can prove pretty much anything. You have to take the text as a whole. There are plenty of Christian scholars who would really disagree with that. There are plenty of Christian who believe that the most important thing is that which Jesus said it was ie love and therefore how can that be wrong.

 

[spudbynight]

The Catholic faith is somewhat sexist and homophobic though even if you aren't. The lesser status of women in the church and the various prononcments on homosexuality would be evidence for such.

OK - I am happy to address both points.

1) Sexism - Can I quote the Catholic Church's official position on women.

In creating the human race "male and female", God gives man and woman an equal personality, endowing them the inalienable rights and responsibilities proper to the human person. God then manifests the dignity of women in the highest form possible, by assuming human flesh from the Virgin Mary, whom the church honors as the mother of God, calling her the new Eve and presenting her as the model of redeemed woman. The sensitive respect of Jesus toward the women that he called to his following and his friendship, his appearing on Easter morning to a woman before the other disciples, the mission entrusted to women to carry the good news of the resurrection to the apostles -- these are all signs that confirm the special esteem of the Lord Jesus for women. The apostle Paul will say: "In Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith ... There is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus" .

The Catholic Church believes men and women are equal but it recognises that they are different. What people get confused about is the lack of women priests in the Catholic Church.

2) Homosexuality

Here is the official teaching on homosexuality from the Catechism of the Catholic Church

2357. "Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, (Cf. Gen 19:1-29; Rom 1:24-27; 1 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 1:10) tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." (CDF, Persona humana 8) They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved."

2358. "The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition."

2359. "Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection."

2396. "Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices."

So yes the Catholic Church is very clearly against homosexual activities but not against homosexuals. The entire Catholic Church is very clear on the distinction between sin and the sinner him or herself. The Church is also very clear in its teaching that the only person able to cast judgement on a person is God himself.

 

[spudbynight]

If you think being intolerant of organisations which promote bigotry & hatred is the SAME as biggotry & hatred then you are clearly lacking in the brains department.

Well, in regards to Paedophilia & Catholicism - the pope, the head of the church, coving it up?

Can you expand on your allegation about the pope covering up paedophilia in the Church?

This has actually been successfully refuted on numerous occasions.