CL & EL Draw

HACO · 7 Nov 2022 at 12:50

BaZ87 said:
My comment wasn't specific to you or even the Liverpool - Real tie but a wider point we see all the time when PL sides are in Europe. We always overestimate European sides as if they're invincible. Yes Real are a fantastic side but we play against top sides in the PL multiple times each season and always hold our own. Real (or Bayern) are not as good as City, who we played and beat despite being at rock bottom these opening couple of months of the season. We sometimes seem to get hung up over the names of these clubs rather than the actual players we'll be facing. It's the same with Utd and Barca now - there will be plenty of people automatically writing Utd off as if this was Barca of 10 years ago.

PL teams in Europe are unpredictable, both unpredictably good and also unpredictably poor. PL champions don't usually fare all that well in Europe. When a PL team surprises Europe with good performances, it's often the underdog PL team team rather than the PL champion coming to Europe and bulldozing over everyone in the way that Bayern, Madrid or Barcelona have done in recent years. I think the sentiment is justified.

adam cool dude · 7 Nov 2022 at 12:52

robfosters said:
Yes he is, just the 18 goals in 18 games this season

In the Spanish League. Auba was banging them in now he has gone back to nothing coming back to England. Also Pique has retired now as well.

To make things worse though Martinez yellow he picked up will mean he will miss the first leg. That means lord Maguire.

We were on a ten match unbeaten streak and only really lost to Villa because key players were injured or suspended.

We were missing a fit Martial, Sancho, Bruno, Varane and Antony. That's half our starting eleven outfield players out. If we get those all back in time I can see us beating Barcelona.

Barcelona have done very little in Europe for 7 going on 8 seasons now.

It is a bit like Milan and Juventus. Everyone sees them as a big juggernaught due to history when in reality they are at the level of Westham.

Droolinggimp · 7 Nov 2022 at 12:56

adam cool dude said:
In the Spanish League. Auba was banging them in now he has gone back to nothing coming back to England. Also Pique has retired now as well.

To make things worse though Martinez yellow he picked up will mean he will miss the first leg. That means lord Maguire.

We were on a ten match unbeaten streak and only really lost to Villa because key players were injured our suspended.

We were missing a fit Martial, Sancho, Bruno, Varane and Antony. That's half our starting eleven outfield players out. If we get those all back in time I can see us beating Barcelona.

Barcelona have done very little in Europe for 7 going on 8 seasons now.

It is a bit like Milan and Juventus. Everyone sees them as a big juggernaught due to history when in reality they are at the level of Westham.

But Maguire is our striker now.

BaZ87 · 7 Nov 2022 at 12:56

HACO said:
PL teams in Europe are unpredictable, both unpredictably good and also unpredictably poor. PL champions don't usually fare all that well in Europe. When a PL team surprises Europe with good performances, it's often the underdog PL team team rather than the PL champion coming to Europe and bulldozing over everyone in the way that Bayern, Madrid or Barcelona have done in recent years. I think the sentiment is justified.

We've consistently had clubs in semi finals and finals for a number of years now. The PL may not have had that many winners but only one side can ever win a trophy and sometimes you need a bit of luck along the way. Take last season as an example, Liverpool, City and Chelsea were all better than Real and if you replayed all 3 of those ties 10 times, Real would have lost 8 or 9 times out of 10.

Despite this little Britain mentality, the best PL sides are at least on a par with the best sides in Europe these days.

HACO · 7 Nov 2022 at 13:06

BaZ87 said:
We've consistently had clubs in semi finals and finals for a number of years now. The PL may not have had that many winners but only one side can ever win a trophy and sometimes you need a bit of luck along the way. Take last season as an example, Liverpool, City and Chelsea were all better than Real and if you replayed all 3 of those ties 10 times, Real would have lost 8 or 9 times out of 10.

Despite this little Britain mentality, the best PL sides are at least on a par with the best sides in Europe these days.

I'll take last season, despite being "better" than Real none of them managed to get a result. You don't get do-overs or hypothetical wins. It's the actual result that matters. PL teams, even when they are "better" quite often underperform against top European teams when it matters. Liverpool has always been the exception here, usually performing better-than-expected in Europe, and the results show the difference.

Robbo · 7 Nov 2022 at 13:19

Thought we’d get Barca. They are pretty poor though so we’ve every chance of winning…

Shamikebab · 7 Nov 2022 at 13:37

Oh look what a surprise that draw isn't.

BaZ87 · 7 Nov 2022 at 13:55

HACO said:
I'll take last season, despite being "better" than Real none of them managed to get a result. You don't get do-overs or hypothetical wins. It's the actual result that matters. PL teams, even when they are "better" quite often underperform against top European teams when it matters. Liverpool has always been the exception here, usually performing better-than-expected in Europe, and the results show the difference.

I used last season as an example to show that while only one side can win the competition, multiple sides could have justifiably won the tournament without it being any kind of shock. And if you want to look at actual results, 2 of the last 4 CL's have been won by PL sides and 5 of the 8 finalists have been from the PL. Your point about PL sides not being sides not doing well in Europe seems to be based on 10 years ago rather than more recent times because the PL has clearly been the most dominant League.

HACO · 7 Nov 2022 at 14:05

BaZ87 said:
I used last season as an example to show that while only one side can win the competition, multiple sides could have justifiably won the tournament without it being any kind of shock. And if you want to look at actual results, 2 of the last 4 CL's have been won by PL sides and 5 of the 8 finalists have been from the PL. Your point about PL sides not being sides not doing well in Europe seems to be based on 10 years ago rather than more recent times because the PL has clearly been the most dominant League.

I'm basing my judgement on the last decade or so, rather than the last couple of seasons.

Our of the last 10 CL winners, 6 have come from La Liga, 2 from Bundesliga and 2 from PL. Europa League is no different, out of the last 10 winners 6 are from La Liga, 3 from PL and one from Bundesliga. How this translates to PL being the most dominant league I don't know, but I think you're the one who is slightly biased. It's quite obvious that Spanish teams have dominated European football by a large margin. PL teams are a distant second.

BaZ87 · 7 Nov 2022 at 14:07

HACO said:
I'm basing my judgement on the last decade or so, rather than the last couple of seasons.

Our of the last 10 CL winners, 6 have come from La Liga, 2 from Bundesliga and 2 from PL. Europa League is no different, out of the last 10 winners 6 are from La Liga, 3 from PL and one from Bundesliga. How this translates to PL being the most dominant league I don't know, but I think you're the one who is slightly biased. It's quite obvious that Spanish teams have dominated European football by a large margin. PL teams are a distant second.

I'm not sure how 10, 9 or 8 seasons ago is particularly relevant to today. The squads, managers and everything about those PL and other European clubs are completely different :confused:

It's clear that in recent seasons the PL has become the most dominant League in Europe.

HACO · 7 Nov 2022 at 14:29

BaZ87 said:
I'm not sure how 10, 9 or 8 seasons ago is particularly relevant to today. The squads, managers and everything about those PL and other European clubs are completely different It's clear that in recent seasons the PL has become the most dominant League in Europe.

I'd argue La Liga has been, due to the number of winnings in both CL and Europa League. But yes, obviously PL teams have gone to the later stages of the CL quite often lately, we've had at least one finalist in the 4 out of the last 5 seasons, two of them were all-English. That's impressive but domination comes from sustained periods of winnings, not "almost wins". 2 wins in 5 years isn't that (yet). Of course if PL teams win 3-4 in the next 5 years, this will be a PL-dominated decade. But we're not there yet.

BaZ87 · 7 Nov 2022 at 14:33

HACO said:
I'd argue La Liga has been, due to the number of winnings in both CL and Europa League. But yes, obviously PL teams have gone to the later stages of the CL quite often lately, we've had at least one finalist in the 4 out of the last 5 seasons, two of them were all-English. That's impressive but domination comes from sustained periods of winnings, not "almost wins". 2 wins in 5 years isn't that (yet). Of course if PL teams win 3-4 in the next 5 years, this will be a PL-dominated decade. But we're not there yet.

As I tried to explain earlier, only one side can ever win the CL however if the PL is continuously getting multiple sides in semi finals and finals then it's a clear sign that PL sides are as strong as any of the top European sides.

Anyway, we're just going round in circles. My initial point was simply that there's a very pessimistic outlook from supporters of PL sides when it comes to Europe when the reality is no where near as bad as they make out. This obviously does not apply to @adam cool dude, he's 10x in the opposite way.

Shamikebab · 7 Nov 2022 at 14:33

I'm not sure how almost wins don't count. If there is a Spanish winner but every other team in the top 8 is English you'd say the Spanish league is dominant?

HACO · 7 Nov 2022 at 14:48

BaZ87 said:
As I tried to explain earlier, only one side can ever win the CL however if the PL is continuously getting multiple sides in semi finals and finals then it's a clear sign that PL sides are as strong as any of the top European sides.

Anyway, we're just going round in circles. My initial point was simply that there's a very pessimistic outlook from supporters of PL sides when it comes to Europe when the reality is no where near as bad as they make out. This obviously does not apply to @adam cool dude, he's 10x in the opposite way.

Maybe people are pessimistic because Madrid went through 3 PL teams last season

Shamikebab said:
I'm not sure how almost wins don't count. If there is a Spanish winner but every other team in the top 8 is English you'd say the Spanish league is dominant?

That didn't happen though, we haven't had that sort of situation. Last season La Liga and PL both had 3 teams in the last 8, and 2 each in the semis, 1 each in the final. And a Spanish team won it.

adam cool dude · 7 Nov 2022 at 17:03

HACO said:
Maybe people are pessimistic because Madrid went through 3 PL teams last season

That didn't happen though, we haven't had that sort of situation. Last season La Liga and PL both had 3 teams in the last 8, and 2 each in the semis, 1 each in the final. And a Spanish team won it.

Please...

The champions League is the most spawniest competition ever. Everyone gets all mystical about it but it is just a cup knockout tournament.

Both United 99 and Liverpool 05 were pure jammy luck. I'd argue United were robbed in 97 by Dortmund who were lucky to win. Spurs getting to the final in 19. Just to list a few. For Madrid last season all the chips just fell into their lap.

The last season the worse team won. 2021 you cannot tell me with a serious face that Chelsea were a better team than City but they won.

Perhaps maybe in the late 90's to mid 00's it was a well rounded competition between the leagues but the English league is so powerful now that the Premier League is a far greater achievement than the Champions League.

chroniclard · 7 Nov 2022 at 17:09

Madrid spawned it last year but then that happens a lot in cup competitions.

HACO · 7 Nov 2022 at 17:11

adam cool dude said:
Please...

The champions League is the most spawniest competition ever. Everyone gets all mystical about it but it is just a cup knockout tournament.

Both United 99 and Liverpool 05 were pure jammy luck. I'd argue United were robbed in 97 by Dortmund who were lucky to win. Spurs getting to the final in 19. Just to list a few. For Madrid last season all the chips just fell into their lap.

The last season the worse team won. 2021 you cannot tell me with a serious face that Chelsea were a better team than City but they won.

Perhaps maybe in the late 90's to mid 00's it was a well rounded competition between the leagues but the English league is so powerful now that the Premier League is a far greater achievement than the Champions League.

What are you even talking about. Yes sometimes they spawn it. Happens in all cup competitions. Yet the team that actually goes through (however spawny) is the team that goes through and if you have a record of being great but struggle to win it (aka City) and someone always spawns it from you then you're not the team who's successful in that tournament.

adam cool dude · 7 Nov 2022 at 17:25

HACO said:
What are you even talking about. Yes sometimes they spawn it. Happens in all cup competitions. Yet the team that actually goes through (however spawny) is the team that goes through and if you have a record of being great but struggle to win it (aka City) and someone always spawns it from you then you're not the team who's successful in that tournament.

Wigan beat City in the FA cup final only ten years ago after getting relegated. Anyone can have there day.

You have even admitted it that teams have won when not deserved. Barcelona 09 is another one. They would have never have got past Chelsea if it wasn't for poor refereeing.

In an ideal world the Champions League would be a league where everyone plays everyone twice but there are not enough days in the year for that.

The probability of being a awesome team and the best in Europe and not getting spawned in game is incredibly low.

You maybe had an argument 5 years ago to be wary of Spanish teams but the playing field is so unbalanced now it is unreal. Just because Madrid spawned a champions League doesn't mean they are "Back"

HACO · 7 Nov 2022 at 17:40

adam cool dude said:
Wigan beat City in the FA cup final only ten years ago after getting relegated. Anyone can have there day.

You have even admitted it that teams have won when not deserved. Barcelona 09 is another one. They would have never have got past Chelsea if it wasn't for poor refereeing.

In an ideal world the Champions League would be a league where everyone plays everyone twice but there are not enough days in the year for that.

The probability of being a awesome team and the best in Europe and not getting spawned in game is incredibly low.

You maybe had an argument 5 years ago to be wary of Spanish teams but the playing field is so unbalanced now it is unreal. Just because Madrid spawned a champions League doesn't mean they are "Back"

None if this is even relevant. If you keep getting spawned every year in a competition you're not a successful team in that competition (City in CL). It's simple as that. If you somehow manage to spawn it from others many years in a row even when others are playing better than you, or many times in short periods (Madrid) then you are successful in the competition.

adam cool dude · 7 Nov 2022 at 18:59

HACO said:
None if this is even relevant. If you keep getting spawned every year in a competition you're not a successful team in that competition (City in CL). It's simple as that. If you somehow manage to spawn it from others many years in a row even when others are playing better than you, or many times in short periods (Madrid) then you are successful in the competition.

I am not arguing about successful. Merely pointing out how spawny and irrelevant the Champions League really is and always really has been. Premier League is the top dog competition to win now. It has overtaken the comp in prestige.