Cloud seeding Citroen Relay

alexthecheese

alexthecheese

alexthecheese

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10 Mar 2006
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Ok, so I bought a motorhome off a nutcase last year, the one above, which I soon after found out had a knackered gearbox that didn't even have any oil in. It was seriously cheap, we're talking £4k+ cheaper than anything of a similar age or condition, so am fairly relaxed about it.

So I've kinda ignored that problem, but will be getting it resolved this summer, but the engine has now recently developed an ability to make clouds whenever I start it up from cold. I had asked on here why it was blowing blue smoke on start-up, which it probably still does, but the white smoke is now much worse and you don't even notice the blue smoke.

It is VERY reluctant to start up, I'm surprised it even does, as it chugs and chugs for about 5-10 seconds, then once it build up enough revs it then will work as normal and then the white plums of smoke disappears. Hot it doesn't make any white smoke and no noticeable blue smoke.

Whilst we were away in it this weekend I was looking to see what it could be and all I could find was perhaps that the head gasket had gone? Also perhaps a turbo seal?

It'll be going to a mechanic in a couple of weeks in the meantime it'd be good to see what how much it might add to the gearbox rebuild. :o

EDIT: Actually, adding to that, it was overheating on the way back from our hols yesterday. And that was when it was about 7c. :rolleyes:
 
what year is it? our swift is on a ducato 2.5tdi cat and its a P 1996 year. From what ive found when ive been reading up its not got glow plugs on it but something called a "Flame Heater" ours can be abit of a pain to start on really cold days like below 0c though, the chuging is the same as mine then once it builds enough revs its fine. Mine does smoke quite a bit at first and then even still does it until you have driven a bit and then it clears and is fine just had its mot last week and passed no problems. You could try a injector cleaner or some stuf you put in with the oil to stop smoke. Dunno if they work but it would be a cheap option to start with and you never know it might have some effect

have a read on here http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftoptitle-79675-lots-of-smoke-on-start-up.html

some similar things as yours regarding smoke. the overheating could be anything but id start by getting the thermostat-temperature senders looked at and check the cooling fan fuse is ok

This is taken from another motorhome forum

"Thermostat stuck in closed position - when gauge goes up after only a few miles, stop open bonnet and feel top hose, if coldish 'stat is still closed, if red hot it's not the 'stat.

Faulty sender - You would need a thermocouple and measure water temp, with cap off it will be 100c, with cap on this rises by 1.5c per 1lb of cap pressure, so with a 10lb cap boiling point will be 115c (This is why you must NOT remove a pressure cap on a hot engine, as a normal rad' will erupt like a guyser and scald you as it suddenly boils).

Fan not cutting in:- with a really hot engine or one that's been ticking over for some time fan should run. If you short out the sender switch or stick a feed straight to the fans the temp should then fall when the fan has run for a while indicating a fan fault.

Other far less likely causes are:- A faulty water pump impellor, similar symptoms as a stuck 'stat, as water will not be circulating so engine red hot and rad' coldish.

Blocked rad:- Normally caused by not using anti-freeze all year, and adding rad repair compounds, engine & rad will be red hot. Can sometimes be cured by reverse flushing i.e. putting a garden hose in the bottom of the rad and letting water run out of the top hose connection."
 
White smoke = split injector.

Whoops! didnt read on.

Glow plugs, its just flooding the cylinders with diesel so when it eventually does start, it cant burn it all off, hence the smoke.

Overheating could be lots of things.
 
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Is it losing any coolant? Coolant being burnt off in the cylinders causes a sweet smelling white smoke to be produced.

Partially clogged injectors that don't give a proper spray pattern will cause difficult starting and plenty of white smoke when cold. It won't cost a lot to get the injectors tested and cleaned as they are standard mechanical type injectors. If this is the problem it will greatly help performance and economy as well.
 
Cool, thanks guys.

My first reaction was the headgasket, but I know chuff all, so that was just based on the internet and not a lot else.

I've since managed to speak to my girlfriend's uncle who said it could be something like a turbo seal? Thankfully my mate, who actually lives literally next door, works on turbos so will have to check that route out also if it comes to it.

I was thinking serious money at first but hopefully it won't be too bad. Funny thing was that I noticed a very similar one - almost identical in fact - parked up opposite on the campsite at the weekend and though it didn't create clouds on start-up, it did blow blue smoke, so it was kinda comforting to know mine is normal in that regard.

Piston rings and all that sounds quite expensive though, I guess?

And thanks for the website to the motorhomes forums - that was a good read, I'll refer to that also when I speak to the gf's uncle.

Also interesting to understand how the water gains an extra 1.5c boiling temperature for every lb of pressure - I was wondering how it did appear to be well over 100c!
 
Also - to actually answer the questions - I didn't really notice a huge drop in coolant, but I did top it up before we went on the first ~100 mile trip and it went from over full to under min, by the time I checked it on the way back, when it had done about ~200 miles. I guess that's quite a drop, actually.

That consisted of only two engine starts. Would the engine start-up be the main area where it burns the coolant? When it chunks out huge amounts of smoke?

I'll see if I can find injector cleaner places - is that a standard thing garages do, or specialist?

I am quite relieved that your answers so far don't spell death for my engine. Phew. :o
 
losing coolant, white smoke = head gasket

check the oil filler for a mayonnaise type substance, if you got that, its time to whip our your cheque book, if you have been using it then its gonna cost as the head might be warped
 
It ran for about 5-10 minutes whilst it was getting hot, so maybe I'll be lucky?

Trying to look up prices for heads, but Citroen stuff seems to be much harder to come by than Ford stuff, for example.
 
you should be able to find injector clean at any car shop like halfords and places like that, have you looked at all the coolant pipes and the header tank for visible leaks? does it lose any fluid when its stood or is it only when its running?
 
Sorry not checked back. White smoke or steam is most likely head gasket but not always.

I'm sure when the head gasket went on my dads old volvo he ran it to hot undid the expansion tank after it had been sat for a couple of hours and it was still pressurised.

You can get the head pressure tested. But if your going through water that quick and its over heating and the white smoke. It does kinda point to the head gasket
 
alexthecheese said:
Also - to actually answer the questions - I didn't really notice a huge drop in coolant, but I did top it up before we went on the first ~100 mile trip and it went from over full to under min, by the time I checked it on the way back, when it had done about ~200 miles. I guess that's quite a drop, actually.

That consisted of only two engine starts. Would the engine start-up be the main area where it burns the coolant? When it chunks out huge amounts of smoke?
Click to expand...

You might simply have a leaky coolant pipe/water pump/radiator/heater and the smoke is purely coincidental, but it's possible you could have a failing head gasket or a cracked head. When the engine is running, the pressure from combustion in the cylinders can prevent any coolant entering, but when the engine is stopped the pressurised coolant can find it's way back into the cylinders and cause the white smoke at the next next engine start.

Providing you have proper coolant (i.e. anti-freeze mix rather than just water) the smoke will have a very distinctive sweet smell. The Ethylene glycol in anti-freeze was illegally used as an additive to sweeten cheap wine a few years ago - it's very poisonous.

Most garages can perform a test (called a "block test") to see if there are any combustion gasses present in the coolant that would point to this kind of problem.

A failing turbo is a possibility, they also tend to produce a fairly thick white smoke at start up, though it will normally have a blue tint to it, and smells "oily". Your oil consumption would reflect this however, does it use a lot of oil?
 
OK, thanks for the replies guys, here's a bit of an update.

I've yet to speak to the mechanic since he had a look at it, but he went to have a look at it on Saturday and he reckons there's nothing wrong with it. :confused:

I'm going on what my girlfriends' Dad says, but when he started it up, there was no smoke, and it wasn't overheating. He had a temperature gun by the sounds of it and it was running cool, and thinks it's the temperature sensor that is at fault, not anything else.

This would seem right, as it has preivously moved about a bit too quickly and unexpectedly, and when he started it up it was apparently indicating 130c only reading 55c on his temperature guage thing.

Trouble is, I'm a bit frustrated he didn't find anything, as when I started it up, there was smoke, but nothing like what we had when we went away. :confused:

The only thing I could think of is the weather is affecting it; it was peeing down quite something when we were away, could that have got into the engine?

Don't know what's going on, but I will try and get hold of him again sometime this week and get him to have another look, perhaps videoing when it pumps out the smoke.

RE: the turbo part at the end, it definitely puts out blue smoke, but the white smoke comes first. The smell is pretty nasty, I'll have to go and start it up again when I've flushed out the coolant with proper stuff to see if it smells sweet, or oily. I seem to remember it stinking of raw diesel, almost.
 
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Was it an IR gun he was pointing at the engine block or was he testing the temperature of the coolant? They are two different things, my engine supposedly runs at about 133C inside, but the coolant never goes above 90.
 
I think you need to decide what type of smoke it is :D. If it's white, is it oil smoke, diesel smoke or clouds of steam? Oil smoke points to either a ring or a bore, but it would not stop smoking and get a lot worse the more revs or loads you put on the engine. If it does it at first but stops, it could well be the turbo oil seal as mentioned. If it's diesel smoke then it could be the injector smoke as mentioned. Failed headgasket 'smoke' is water leaking into the bore and this is usually clouds of water steam and not smoke. They can let oil by, but it's usually bluey coloured, oily stinky and not clouds of it.
 
Yes maybe I do. :D

My first reaction was, fark me, that stinks of diesel. Horrible, horrible accrid diesel, so I'll go with that. It doesn't smell sweet, and it's not particularly oily.

It is mixed with light blue oil smoke, but nowhere near in vast quantities as with the white smoke.

When it's hot the smoke disappears completely - touch of blue perhaps - but the white smoke goes.

Importantly I think is that when there is lots of smoke, it doesn't really want to get going. Almost like it's clearing something out - really chug chug chug chug... then when it's got some revs, sometimes 10 seconds later, the smoke starts to dissipate and everything is good.

I'll try and get a video up and do a taste test. :p
 
whats the mileage on it? if it hasnt been used much it could be in need of a good trash. ours does smell of diesel also and depending on the weather it can be more smokey on tick over but ones its moved off a few miles it clear up. thought it did sound like a temp sender fualt tbh but there still the water loss to explain, any update on that?

Maybe try some "preimium" diesel and an injector cleaner see if that helps. See if you can get a video up of it on tick over and been reved and i will compair it to mine.

These engines just seem to be very smokey in certain conditions tough so if you not using any oil and the coolant problem is fixed you might just have live with it. Keeps up updated though
 
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