Computer components post Fukushima

When a post starts by saying the poster has been doing their own research the chances are, unfortunately, that they are about to troll or they have some agenda of their own which they will cherry pick the data to be presented to try and meet.

The OP says that Toshiba are the only people that have conceded there is an issue ... But actually from what you have said all they have conceded is that that they have been asked by customers if there is an issue ... Not whether there is an issue or not.

As usual with these threads there is no point with actually presenting any evidence that debunks the OP's claims as they will not listen anyway. As a qualified physicist who has been following what happened in Japan with interest I would say that from the things I have read that this isn't something which you should be worried about (and no, I am not going to bother looking up sources as I am not going to waste my time on it).

The OP appears to have an anti-nuclear, anti-Japanese agenda which has been carefully wrapped up into a thread about computer parts in attempt to make it plausible on this forum.

What the **** gave you the impression I was "anti-Japanese" (whatever the **** that means)?

I have nothing but the greatest of respect, and ultimately, sympathy for the Japanese public.

Nothing I have posted on this thread would suggest otherwise.

For someone who claims to be a physicist, that's one ****ing pathetic attempt at discrediting me.

But at least you noticed I'm 'anti-nuclear', how astute of you.

That wasn't the purpose for starting this thread however, I hold genuine concerns (as you might have noticed) and I wanted to discover if other users on this forum were aware of this potential threat to exports destined for our respective homes one way or another. It turned into a debate on nuclear as I took exception to some comments from one of the usual nuclear industry apologists.

To be entirely honest, I was hoping to come on here and have my fears allayed. Instead, I've simply had to defend myself from all corners of the forum and are now having to jump to my defence again upon your suggestion of bigotry or even racism.

Were you a physicist you'd provide a reasoned and well thought out response, with resources linked to support your reasoning and illustrate your point. Instead you resorted to the lowest of the low in an entirely transparent and equally pathetic attempt at undermining and discrediting me, while avoiding my relevant and pertinent points altogether.

Tell me I'm paranoid if you're incapable of articulating yourself adequately enough to express your opinion or engage in a debate on the subject matter, but don't question my ****ing character when you have no foundation whatsoever to support such derogatory remarks.

So in that vein, I put it to you that you're not a physicist, but simply a limp-wristed degenerate posting from the comfort of his mother's loft conversion.

Reasoned debate welcome,

Thanking you.
 
What the **** gave you the impression I was "anti-Japanese" (whatever the **** that means)?

I have nothing but the greatest of respect, and ultimately, sympathy for the Japanese public.

Nothing I have posted on this thread would suggest otherwise.

For someone who claims to be a physicist, that's one ****ing pathetic attempt at discrediting me.

But at least you noticed I'm 'anti-nuclear', how astute of you.

That wasn't the purpose for starting this thread however, I hold genuine concerns (as you might have noticed) and I wanted to discover if other users on this forum were aware of this potential threat to exports destined for our respective homes one way or another. It turned into a debate on nuclear as I took exception to some comments from one of the usual nuclear industry apologists.

To be entirely honest, I was hoping to come on here and have my fears allayed. Instead, I've simply had to defend myself from all corners of the forum and are now having to jump to my defence again upon your suggestion of bigotry or even racism.

Were you a physicist you'd provide a reasoned and well thought out response, with resources linked to support your reasoning and illustrate your point. Instead you resorted to the lowest of the low in an entirely transparent and equally pathetic attempt at undermining and discrediting me, while avoiding my relevant and pertinent points altogether.

Tell me I'm paranoid if you're incapable of articulating yourself adequately enough to express your opinion or engage in a debate on the subject matter, but don't question my ****ing character when you have no foundation whatsoever to support such derogatory remarks.

So in that vein, I put it to you that you're not a physicist, but simply a limp-wristed degenerate posting from the comfort of his mother's loft conversion.

Reasoned debate welcome,

Thanking you.

The thing is that you are far more likely to encounter physicists and others educated in the sciences on tech forums like this one as opposed to most others. On average such individuals will see thru arguments based on pseudo-science very quickly. Making such a post on a tech related forum was indeed a bad bet if you wanted fears allayed, as the average techie is not subject to such fears to begin with. Which in turns highlights anyone who does express such fears. Look up posts on this forum by someone named Magick and I think you will understand better.

I suspect like many people caught up in such paranoia, you have surrounded yourself with others like you on forums were fiction and conspiracy are the norm and the individuals are quite removed from reality. Prolonged "exposure" to "paranoia radiation" (forgive me) has reinforced your opinion to the point were it is fact to you. No one could convince you otherwise. It has gone so far that you think you can venture into the sane world, express these opinions and people will flock to it. Being utterly convinced of your own opinion it is of course an utter shock when suddenly others poke holes in it and disagree. Such things don't happen on www.japaneseradiationconspiracy.com. Everyone there being in perfect agreeance.
 
Were you a physicist you'd provide a reasoned and well thought out response, with resources linked to support your reasoning and illustrate your point. Instead you resorted to the lowest of the low in an entirely transparent and equally pathetic attempt at undermining and discrediting me, while avoiding my relevant and pertinent points altogether.

Tell me I'm paranoid if you're incapable of articulating yourself adequately enough to express your opinion or engage in a debate on the subject matter, but don't question my ****ing character when you have no foundation whatsoever to support such derogatory remarks.

So in that vein, I put it to you that you're not a physicist, but simply a limp-wristed degenerate posting from the comfort of his mother's loft conversion.

Reasoned debate welcome,

Thanking you.

No. Why should I waste my time looking up reference to try and contradict someone who is unlikely to listen to anything I say. Frankly I have better things to do with my time even if I wasn't currently in the office. I don't need to undermine or discredit you as you haven't shown that you have any credibility already.

Actually I am trained as a physicist including in areas pertaining to nuclear physics .. and I don't live in my parents loft, or basement, it'd be a rather long and inconvenient commute.

No. 32 I think.
 
Well done Mario Balotelli for keeping your cool, there are a lot of thoughtless posters in this thread.

I think your question is a fair one, however my gut feeling is that the radiation levels in the factories which produce the imported goods we buy in the West were/are sufficiently low to contribute negligibly to your cancer etc. risk.

The deeper concern you raise seems to be one of the dosage levels involved. I don't know the numbers off hand and was going to look into it, however the following image posted by Vinni3 @H|H seems to give a good graphical representation:


Some interesting doses to note:

Background dose per day on average = 10 microSv
Airplane flight from NY to LA = 40 microSv
Extra dose in Tokyo after Fukushima = 40 microSv

Yearly release target for a nuclear power plant = 30 microSv
Living within 50 miles of a nuclear plant for a year = 0.09 microSv

The first three suggest that even in Tokyo (just 240 Km away) the dose was only the same as a 6 hour plane journey. The latter two suggest that living within 50 miles of a normal nuclear power plant the dose is reduced by a factor of maybe 300 (the particles spread out considerably with distance I guess and become fairly well-mixed throughout the atmosphere, hence measurements being made on the other side of the globe following the explosion).

So, we can probably conclude that the doses received at factories in Taiwan, and even in Japan itself, were so low as to be effectively negligible compared to the background. You can probably buy small components from these factories without worrying :)

Bans on imports of Japanese food etc. have even been lifted now, which is good as radioactive isotopes tend to accumulate in food.
 
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I'm actually really angry following watching this.

First of all, I expected them to trivialise the health effects and the danger radiation poses to our environment - but I'd go as far as saying that what I have just watched was offensive.

I'll list what I took exception to;

It was claimed the cooling pumps at the Fukushima site "were working fine until the tsunami struck", this is impossible to verify and is widely disputed to be entirely false; http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...truth-behind-fukushimas-meltdown-2338819.html

It remains one of the most hotly debated topics on the disaster, yet the 'documentary' (public exercise in damage limitation/ propaganda might be more accurate titles) passed it off as fact.

In the same sequence it was said to be "reassuring" that despite the "horrendous natural disaster" and the subsequent build up of pressure in the reactor the measures in place to prevent a containment breach were successful, to paraphrase - 'the reactor wasn't breached'.

The Nuclear Regulatory Commission stated in August that they believed the fragments of fuel rods and pellets scattered for miles across the Daiichi site were from the reactor core of unit 3, and not the spent fuel pools.

http://vimeo.com/28014740

That completely contradicts what was stated in the above programme.


The programme then cuts to Dounreay, where they talk about the vast clean-up operation to the tune of £2.9 billion which will take hundreds of years to complete (they're unable to spin that one).

They then interview a man responsible for the vast clean-up operation of the seabed and coast around Dounreay. There he states that the threat from coming into contact with a hot particle or particles is small and that a feasible manner in which you could come into direct contact with such contamination is by getting such material under your fingernail. He trivialises the seriousness of such contact by stating that you'd simply be subjected to a 'little burn' which would eventually subside (reliant on the particle being removed), he does however then concede that there is an increased risk of developing cancer following such an exposure.

Crucially though, the scenario of exposure he proposed is the very best case scenario, the exposure is a short-term one and the hot particle never enters the body and is removed after a short period of time. He neglects to touch upon the repercussions of such material being unwittingly inhaled or ingested, where the radiation is internally irradiating its subject, and it'll remain in the individual's body until the day he or she dies.

I wonder why such exposure wasn't even theorised in the programme, and the other scenario was trivialised?

In the following sequence the presenter then blabs on about "fear" and uses the old cliche of "press into overdrive", suggesting irrational histeria while simultaneously trivialising the threat radiation poses to our health. And of course they roll out the old Radium painted watches of yesteryear nonsense again continuing with the premise of trivialising the entire subject matter.

But what follows, is ****ing outrageous.

They reel out an 'independent' (laughable, she's made countless tv appearances, namely on the BBC, playing down events at Fukushima and the effects of radiation on the human body - see vested interests) Professor who proceeds to compare a low estimate of 20,000 total deaths as a result of exposure to radiation in Hiroshima and Nagasaki to a death toll of falling out of ****ing bed and its' respective 'dangers' comparatively.

She then pulls out a figure of 122 deaths as a result of Chernobyl, which the presenter then proceeds to state "according to Gerry (our 'independent', 'objective' professor), includes both the short-term effects of acute radiation sickness and most cancers".

That figure is one of the lowest possible figures you will find on the death toll from Chernobyl, and it doesn't even include the lives of anyone who was working in or around the site following the immediate aftermath, let alone the wider public. This is despite it being made abundantly clear by the presenter via our professor that it includes "most cancers" (note how she worded that very carefully).

In Belarus alone there were an estimated 6000 additional cases of thyroid cancers in children between 1986 and 2005. And there are more expected in the coming years and decades. In 2005 the IAEA (who exist solely to promote nuclear power) reported an estimated 4000 deaths as a direct result of the accident. A TORCH report in 2006 estimated an excess of cancers between 30,000 and 60,000. The environmental NGO estimated a total death toll of 93,000 - just among those who worked on the clean-up operation following the accident. On the wider death toll they state, and I quote from their report; “The most recently published figures indicate that in Belarus, Russia and the Ukraine alone the disaster could have resulted in an estimated 200,000 additional deaths in the period between 1990 and 2004."

And according to the Union Chernobyl, the main organization of liquidators (those who worked on the clean-up operation), 10% of the 600,000 liquidators are now dead, and 165,000 disabled.

One report from a Russian publication written by 'leading Eastern European authorities', translated into English, and then published online in 2009 by the New York Academy of Sciences puts the wider death toll at 985,000. Following an analysis of scientific literature their report concludes that medical records between 1986, the year of the accident, and 2004 reflect 985,000 excess deaths as a result of the radioactivity released.

Now we'll never know the exact figure of deaths attributable to Chernobyl, but what we can say with absolute certainty is that quoting a figure of 122 and proceeding to state that it "includes both the short-term effects of acute radiation sickness and most cancers" among that total is complete and utter misinformation. It appears to be designed in order to be intentionally misleading.

Also, I'm not aware of any threat that falling about of bed may make you infertile, or should you remain fertile, your child being born with a birth defect. Increases of both were noted at Nagasak, Hiroshima and Chernobyl, but no mention of that from our 'radiation expert' of course.

Then the presenter cuts to slides of sensationalist tabloid headlines from 1986 while stating; "figures like these certainly suggest that radiation from accidents like Chernobyl are not as worrying as the media coverage would have us believe".

Are you catching my drift here?

Following a brief interlude where the presenter is seen at a research facility, there's some interesting demonstrations on the harm radiation does to human cells, they then cut back to fatty where she confidently (after bringing her act to a conclusion by pulling out a large card with an emboldened '0') states;

"There won't be a death toll from radiation in Fukushima."

Simply astonishing.

Despite what we know of the carcinogenic effects of ionising radiation, our 'radiation expert' tells the British public there won't be a single death attributable to Fukushima. Not even a single cancer which may, or may not result in a death.

Nothing.

Oh, but what's this?

http://enenews.com/40-year-old-fuku...-week-checkup-showed-no-prior-health-problems

A Japanese contractor dying of acute leukemia while working on the site for a week - surely not?

He is among a handful of contractors to now have died while working at the Fukushima Daiichi site, and he won't be the last. And tragically, there will also be a noticeable increase in cancer rates among the Japanese public, likewise infertility rates will increase among adults as will heart disease among young children.

When this begins to become a morbid reality in the coming years, will that not be attributable to the vast amounts of radioactive substances now polluting parts of urban Japan equal to and often greater than those at which it became mandatory for evacuation in what is now the exclusion zone at Chernobyl?

http://enenews.com/tokyo-area-soil-...yl-relocation-levels-at-least-550000-bqm²-map

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBkrIgJUWLk

Now back to the quoted programme on the BBC, this is a purportedly scientific programme televised on our leading broadcaster in the UK, funded by the tax payer. Is it any coincidence that such a programme with such skewed and misleading data and information was presented shortly before our government's referendum on nuclear power?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jun/30/british-government-plan-play-down-fukushima

The nuclear industry have their fingers in a lot of pies, and if you, or anyone else for that matter, believes that they would reveal information relevant to our health, that they could conceal without censure, in tandem with our government, then you're kidding yourself.
 
Well done Mario Balotelli for keeping your cool, there are a lot of thoughtless posters in this thread.

I think your question is a fair one, however my gut feeling is that the radiation levels in the factories which produce the imported goods we buy in the West were/are sufficiently low to contribute negligibly to your cancer etc. risk.

The deeper concern you raise seems to be one of the dosage levels involved. I don't know the numbers off hand and was going to look into it, however the following image posted by Vinni3 @H|H seems to give a good graphical representation:



Some interesting doses to note:

Background dose per day on average = 10 microSv
Airplane flight from NY to LA = 40 microSv
Extra dose in Tokyo after Fukushima = 40 microSv

Yearly release target for a nuclear power plant = 30 microSv
Living within 50 miles of a nuclear plant for a year = 0.09 microSv

The first three suggest that even in Tokyo (just 240 Km away) the dose was only the same as a 6 hour plane journey. The latter two suggest that living within 50 miles of a normal nuclear power plant the dose is reduced by a factor of maybe 300 (the particles spread out considerably with distance I guess and become fairly well-mixed throughout the atmosphere, hence measurements being made on the other side of the globe following the explosion).

So, we can probably conclude that the doses received at factories in Taiwan, and even in Japan itself, were so low as to be effectively negligible compared to the background. You can probably buy small components from these factories without worrying :)

Bans on imports of Japanese food etc. have even been lifted now, which is good as radioactive isotopes tend to accumulate in food.

Thank you mate.

But to really understand the threat you have to understand the fundamental differences between internal and external exposure to radioactive substances. Then you'll release that the comparisons you've made, and the others people frequently make, aren't appropriate under these circumstances.

An intersting insight (for those who are interested) into the life of an American professor living in Japan, 300 miles south of Fukushima;

http://www.earthfiles.com/news.php?ID=1897&category=Environment
 
I may have stated that the issue at hand isn't one that concerns me greatly, at least not for my own well being at least as I seriously doubt I've been affected in any significant way, I am concerned about the real fallout on the Japanese people and future generations born there though of course. My post was of course written to try and lighten the mood a little and make people smile ...but none the less in fairness to Mario I do think his question is perfectly valid and it does have merit.

I do not know nearly enough about nuclear physics to even begin to address the issue myself, but dismissing him out of hand as some internet crackpot isn't really the nicest or most welcoming approach to take to a new member. Maybe he is an internet crackpot ...I don't know ... but he doesn't seem to be a troll so I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.

I do think that Mario may be overthinking this a touch and letting it concern him more than is really healthy. But I wouldn't dismiss him out of hand, he may have a good point, as I said I do not know enough to say otherwise really.

Fact is, most of us here probably don't 'really' know, we are likely guessing, albeit some of those guesses will be educated guesses and if any of us really did know ... well I think those voices will end up getting lost in the crowd, as is often the case with internet forums full of knowitalls.

Still, makes for an interesting read anyway.

One thing is for sure though, I wouldn't just accept at face value whatever the Japanese government says about it, they have a vested interest in playing any potential threat or hazard down.

Still, I do believe that the threat to us from manufactured electronic goods is 'probably' minimal, I don't know this for sure though ...and neither do 'most' other people.
 
I came with no agenda, it was squeezed out of me!

My OP was sincere, believe it or not, I really couldn't care less.

So you say you came with no agenda. But your agenda was squeezed out of you. So you do have an agenda? What is it? Anti-nuclear? Anti-government? Both since you're ranting that the state sponsored media are duping people on the lead up to referendums?

It's all very tin foil hat...
 
i was allowed to handle strontium-90 as part of my a-level physics coursework, way more than you will ever find as contaminate on your electrical components. it only penetrates a few metres of air and assuming theres something else between you and the source (lets say you computer chassis) then that is more than likely sufficient to stop it completely
 
Just a question to the OP.

Why are you hung up on Japanese contamination so much? Ever wondered what radioactive particles are naturally in electrical components? I'm sure that with all the rare metals that are used, you are likely to find some natural nasties.

Also do you lick or eat your computer components? (probably some people on here do!). So how do you think our going to get an internal dose? Not from gamma - if there was significant levels from contamination it would be detected going through customs (what with all the terror threats - you don't think the authorities check for such materials). Alpha or beta particles, well it back to whether you participate in putting computer parts inside your body. :eek:

It's all very amusing seeing people who don't deal with radiation on a daily basis panic about such a ridiculously small threat, whilst appearing to be oblivious, or just ignoring all the background natural radiation that the are continuously subjected to.
 
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