Congestion Charge

[Jean-F]

A report in yesterday’s London Evening Standard tells of a possible move by TFL to remove the exemption from London’s Congestion Charge currently enjoyed by minicabs and PHVs.
As a former London Black Cab driver, my immediate thought was one of large scale schadenfreude, but I wondered what would be the thoughts of the cognoscenti, or maybe just the travelling public.
I guess that the first reaction would be that fares will inevitably rise, but in actual fact the £11.50 charge is for a full day, so minicabs drivers shouldn’t be charging every fare an extra £11.50.
On the assumption that they do 12 jobs per day, a loading of £1.00 per fare would cover it.
The initiative from the Mayor is said to be because the rising amount of minicabs has worsened congestion, at the moment there are 88,364 minicabs licenced in London.
It could be said, that if minicabs fares rise, people will abandon them, and return to using their own cars, adding to congestion, can’t see that myself, but maybe wiser heads than mine will disagree.

 

[Haggisman]

Extra £11.50 a day vs £1 on a taxi fare? I can't see it either tbh

 

[Rroff]

Wonder how much is really about congestion and how much is looking for additional revenue (not sure how the money is used) with the increasing costs of everything and reduced budgets available to pay for them.

 

[stockhausen]

Wonder how much is really about congestion and how much is looking for additional revenue (not sure how the money is used) with the increasing costs of everything and reduced budgets available to pay for them.

I wonder how much of this is down to pressure from the Black Cab business?

 

[dr_volki]

I wonder how much of this is down to pressure from the Black Cab business?

good point, you'd think the black cab company would adjust their fares across the board slightly for everyone. not sure about uber and others (if there are any).

note: i've never used uber so don't know how their fares are setup at all

 

[peterwalkley]

Question based on my ignorance of how this works at the moment: Are those 88K licensed minicabs/PHV's all genuine or is there some fiddle going on where people are registering a private car as a cab to get the exemption and then just using it for their daily commute ?

 

[Jean-F]

Question based on my ignorance of how this works at the moment: Are those 88K licensed minicabs/PHV's all genuine or is there some fiddle going on where people are registering a private car as a cab to get the exemption and then just using it for their daily commute ?

Probably some are private car owners who’ve seen a way through the loophole, but I would have thought that with the amount of hoops that have to be jumped through by now, maybe to show you’ve been vetted to gain a PHV driving licence, before your vehicle gets licenced as a PHV, it would be too much hassle.
My next door neighbour, had a two seater MG years ago now, that she registered as a minicab, and was able to avoid the Charge, this was when it was £8.00 I think.

I wonder how much of this is down to pressure from the Black Cab business?

Seriously, even though I’m on their side, I doubt very much that they’d have that kind of sway with TFL.

good point, you'd think the black cab company would adjust their fares across the board slightly for everyone. not sure about uber and others (if there are any).

note: i've never used uber so don't know how their fares are setup at all

An easy mistake, but lots of people think that Black Cabs are a company, rather like Uber, but there is no Black Cab company, every Black Cab driver is an individual one man band.
The majority are owner drivers, but there are still quite a few who rent their taxis from a fleet owner, for rates that vary, depending on the age of the vehicle.
Around 6 years back, when I sold my last taxi, an N prefix which I’d bought brand new for £28,995 in 1995, to a fleet owner, he was charging between £180 to £240 per week for taxi rental.

 

[dr_volki]

An easy mistake, but lots of people think that Black Cabs are a company, rather like Uber, but there is no Black Cab company, every Black Cab driver is an individual one man band.
The majority are owner drivers, but there are still quite a few who rent their taxis from a fleet owner, for rates that vary, depending on the age of the vehicle.
Around 6 years back, when I sold my last taxi, an N prefix which I’d bought brand new for £28,995 in 1995, to a fleet owner, he was charging between £180 to £240 per week for taxi rental.

Thanks did not know that

 

[dowie]

Around 6 years back, when I sold my last taxi, an N prefix which I’d bought brand new for £28,995 in 1995, to a fleet owner, he was charging between £180 to £240 per week for taxi rental.

Could you not rent it yourself as an individual? Seems like a nice residual income. How much did he pay you for it?

 

[Jean-F]

Could you not rent it yourself as an individual? Seems like a nice residual income. How much did he pay you for it?

I could have rented it out myself, but then I’d have had the agg of insurance, VED, servicing, etc. etc.
In 2012 there were loud whispers in the London trade, that taxis would not be re-licenced once they were 15 years old, as they were considered to be contributing too much toward pollution, and mine was 17 y.o. then.
The fleet owner who bought mine, played on the fact that he might be buying something that’s life was ending imminently.
I pushed for £2750, he countered with £2000.
Eventually, when I said that I’d advertise it in the Trade Press, as someone from Liverpool, Birmingham, or Glasgow might be interested, he offered £2500 for an immediate decision, I took it.

 

[Dolph]

I really cannot see any justification for the continued special treatment of black cabs vs other forms of self employed hire car drivers.

It seems to be a protection racket that the current London mayor, having recieved substantial donations from their union, is determined to protect at the expense of the voting public.

 

[Jean-F]

I really cannot see any justification for the continued special treatment of black cabs vs other forms of self employed hire car drivers.

It seems to be a protection racket that the current London mayor, having recieved substantial donations from their union, is determined to protect at the expense of the voting public.

Not for nothing Dolph, but Black Cabs DON’T get any special treatment, Mayor Khan appears to be supremely disinterested in the welfare of Black Cab drivers, and why should he be I guess.
They don’t have a union as such, but some drivers are members of the T.G.W.U., and some are aligned with the Underground’s R.M.T.
You may mean the Licenced Taxi Drivers Association, but to my knowledge, they have not donated any financial contributions to the Mayor’s office, although no doubt they’re always ready with unasked for advice.

 

[Dolph]

Not for nothing Dolph, but Black Cabs DON’T get any special treatment, Mayor Khan appears to be supremely disinterested in the welfare of Black Cab drivers, and why should he be I guess.
They don’t have a union as such, but some drivers are members of the T.G.W.U., and some are aligned with the Underground’s R.M.T.
You may mean the Licenced Taxi Drivers Association, but to my knowledge, they have not donated any financial contributions to the Mayor’s office, although no doubt they’re always ready with unasked for advice.

The gmb, rmt and unite all claim black can drivers as theirs and donated to the mayoral campaign. Black fans absolutely are privileged compared to other vehicles, they operate under different rules and can do things that other similar service providers cannot.

The whole uber vendetta is another example, given that both uber drivers and black cab drivers are self employed.

 

[Nasher]

Wonder how much is really about congestion and how much is looking for additional revenue (not sure how the money is used) with the increasing costs of everything and reduced budgets available to pay for them.

TBH this is probably the real reason for most road charges. E.g take Dartford crossing. It paid for itself years ago yet they still charge a toll AND raise it occasionally...

They have also made sure it's remained a bottleneck with the alternative being drive through London.

 

[Jean-F]

Dolph, if we’re not careful, this thread will descend into the Dolph and Jean-F show, and I’m sure that we don’t want that.
I have no doubt that the GMB, the RMT, and Unite all contributed to Mayor Khan’s campaign, he is after all a Labour Mayor, all three are affiliated to the Left, GMB and Unite to the Labour Party, and the RMT to the Trade Union and Socialist Coalition.
I don’t disbelieve that all three unions have some Black Cab drivers as members, but I’m sure that the unions didn’t chip in to the Mayor’s campaign expressly to get some kind of favours for their Black Cab driver members.
In addition the GMB assisted two Uber drivers in their fight to be classified as workers, and therefore entitled to minimum wage and holiday pay, unlike self-employed drivers, so it isn’t right to say the GMB are championing Black Cab drivers, to the detriment of Uber drivers.
I’m genuinely confused as to what different rules you think that there are for Black Cab drivers, unless you mean that they can respond to a street hail, while a minicab driver cannot.
If they break any traffic laws, running a red, speeding, parking, etc. they fall foul of the law, the same as any driver.
The “vendetta” as you call it, between Black Cab drivers and Uber, is because the Black Cab drivers feel that Uber’s method of calculating a fare emulates the Black Cab’s meter, and whether anyone agrees with it or not, ONLY Black Cabs can use a meter in London to calculate the fare.
Personally, as hors de combat now, I won’t be affected one way or the other if the minicab privilege of exemption to the Congestion Charge stays, or is lifted, I just wondered what others think of it.

 

[Dolph]

Dolph, if we’re not careful, this thread will descend into the Dolph and Jean-F show, and I’m sure that we don’t want that.
I have no doubt that the GMB, the RMT, and Unite all contributed to Mayor Khan’s campaign, he is after all a Labour Mayor, all three are affiliated to the Left, GMB and Unite to the Labour Party, and the RMT to the Trade Union and Socialist Coalition.
I don’t disbelieve that all three unions have some Black Cab drivers as members, but I’m sure that the unions didn’t chip in to the Mayor’s campaign expressly to get some kind of favours for their Black Cab driver members.
In addition the GMB assisted two Uber drivers in their fight to be classified as workers, and therefore entitled to minimum wage and holiday pay, unlike self-employed drivers, so it isn’t right to say the GMB are championing Black Cab drivers, to the detriment of Uber drivers.
I’m genuinely confused as to what different rules you think that there are for Black Cab drivers, unless you mean that they can respond to a street hail, while a minicab driver cannot.
If they break any traffic laws, running a red, speeding, parking, etc. they fall foul of the law, the same as any driver.
The “vendetta” as you call it, between Black Cab drivers and Uber, is because the Black Cab drivers feel that Uber’s method of calculating a fare emulates the Black Cab’s meter, and whether anyone agrees with it or not, ONLY Black Cabs can use a meter in London to calculate the fare.
Personally, as hors de combat now, I won’t be affected one way or the other if the minicab privilege of exemption to the Congestion Charge stays, or is lifted, I just wondered what others think of it.

So you name two things where black cabs are given special treatment (street hailing and metering) while claiming they don't get any... Not entirely sure that is convincing.

 

[Rids]

Given the requirements to become a Black Cab driver vs those of becoming an Uber driver, does it not make sense for them to have some form of competitive advantage?

 

[Dolph]

Given the requirements to become a Black Cab driver vs those of becoming an Uber driver, does it not make sense for them to have some form of competitive advantage?

Are you confusing competitive advantage with regulatory advantage?

If the training and requirements are worth doing, they will give a competitive advantage.

What black cabs have is regulatory advantage, which is not the same.