Consumer Advice

[FortuitousFluke]

I've noticed there are a lot of threads dealing with politics on the forum at the moment so I thought I'd throw one up regarding a consumer issue, because we never have any of those.

I can only apologise and reassure you that, at the very least, this isn't an ebay thread.

So I purchased a car back in February, drove it okay for a month and then got a franchise garage to take a look as some weird stuff was going on. The garage came back with a laundry list of issues including a broken exhaust and significant brake binding.

Long story short I wasn't happy with the retailers response to the issues and sought a chargeback from my card issuer. The retailer didn't respond to the request and I was awarded the case a few weeks back. In the meantime the brakes on the car have failed (due to the brake binding issue, and the MOT has lapsed making it undriveable)

Forward on to this week. I've got a letter from a legal firm working on behalf of the retailer who is stating the claim was spurious and demanding either full payment back, or return of the car and half payment.

It's worth noting that I tried to return the car whilst the complaint was ongoing and was knocked back by the retailer (they threatened to push it onto the road and report it to the Police as dumped).

Does anyone know where I stand with this? CAB have advised that I have completed my statutory requirement to return the car so any further attempt should be at their cost.

Just after some advice really, the card company have said that the retailer are within their rights to chase me but that I also have a right not to receive faulty goods.

Any advice GD?

tl:dr - did a chargeback on a car now the retailer are demanding their money back.

 

[FortuitousFluke]

Thanks for the responses.

Just to clarify, as it stands I do still have the car. During the dispute process with the retailer I attempted to return the car and they refused to accept it. I have no issue with returning the vehicle, however legally speaking they are now liable for the cost of that return (either through collecting/arranging collection themselves, or by reimbursing my costs).

I'm not still driving the vehicle, it's no longer road worthy (as a result of the faults included in the dispute) and is currently sat on my drive taking up space.

The retailers response was to offer a partial repair which didn't cover the most concerning of the faults, following my refusal they stonewalled me, at no point did the respond to the correspondence from the card agency once I'd applied for the clawback.

Just to clarify I recognise they need to receive the goods back, just wanted to see what the opinion of the group was about how I tackle the negotiation around that process. Effectively I'd want them to foot the bill due to their prior refusal to accept the return, and I'm not happy with the amount they're claiming as fair usage.

Looks like legal advice may be the way to go. I've not gone down this route before, do I just approach a solicitor with experience in this field?

 

[FortuitousFluke]

You live you learn, they offered a free warranty but surprise surprise it was 30 days which is the same as my statutory right to refuse anyway.

Sounds like it's going to be an uphill slog. Suffice it to say I've already learned my lesson and the car we bought as a replacement is much better, the whole experience was a vast improvement.

I'll see about getting some legal advice, but given the sums involved I may just formulate a response to the letter and attempt to negotiate with the dealer's representative around the fair usage and cost of return. As it stands I have the money and have made reasonable attempts to return the car (I'm also happy for the car to go back to them), in terms of legal action it will be their responsibility to chase me, I'm hopeful that acting in a reasonable way should lead to a resolution that doesn't cost me too much.

Thanks for the responses so far, some really good advice, I'm even giving great consideration to curling a steaming present through their letterbox as decorum demands.

 

[FortuitousFluke]

Do you have this in writing in some form?

Unfortunately not, whilst they may be unscrupulous, they don't appear to be stupid. More's the pity.

I do have a witness to the return attempt with pictures but I don't think they witnessed the threat.

 

[FortuitousFluke]

Thought I'd bump this as an update as this is issue is likely to go the distance and I thought it might be useful to document my experience for anybody who has to go through this crap in the future.

So since my last update I've been corresponding with the car dealership's legal firm basically to try and agree a sum for fair usage and the method by which the car should be returned to the dealer. I managed to get them to agree in writing to £350 fair usage (they originally wanted £800), but they are insisting that I return the car to them at my cost, I assert that my previous return attempt discharges my responsibility and that they need to collect the vehicle.

Fast forward to two days ago, I receive a court summons relating to the car and demanding either £500 and the car to be returned in good condition or the full value of the car plus an extra £500 for usage (hmmm). They've left a shed load of the original complaint out of their submission and asserted that I was just complaining that the tires and brakes were a bit worn. Anyway I've got two weeks to respond and then I await my court date. I'll update as the process goes along just for anybody who might end up being taken to small claims in the future and wants an idea of the process.

 

[FortuitousFluke]

How much will it cost to transport it back to the dealer?

Surely this is costing them more money in legal fees than the £350 they originally wanted.

I would personally dump it in the entrance of their forecourt at night leaving a cheque for £350 on the seat and the keys through their post box. Just to end the dispute.

I think the cost for me is between £150 - £250 to transport (one of the highlighted issues caused the brakes to fail so it would be a flatbed jobby), it's really more about the principal. I did try to return and was told that if I did so they would push it onto the road and then report it as dumped to the police. At the moment I'm still the registered owner so I'd be liable for impound fees etc, if I just rocked up with no warning I suspect that would be the outcome.

 

[FortuitousFluke]

Surely it is no longer your problem?

You have had your (full?) refund from your card provider because they did not act upon that request.

Why would you pay them anything going forward? Tell them the car is in such a place come and collect it at your will. Send your form to the DVLA to say you no longer own the car.

It's my problem in that they've taken the case to the small claims court claiming that I raised the card clawback spuriously and demanding I return "their" money.

Given how many cowboys there are out there, you could probably get quite decent legal advice on the specifics and see whether it is worth fighting these cowboys.

Obviously a lot of this rides on proof around trying to return it.

I've had some legal advice form both the CAB and a paid solicitor, both of whom agree with me around what's reasonable in this case. I have a witness and photos from my return attempt and one of the response letters from their law firm alludes to the fact that this attempt did actually take place so I feel reasonably confident.

I'm not really after advice as the course is pretty clear at this point, I will pretty much need to defend my case in small claims court, just thought I'd document the progress as I'd previously asked for advice from the forum.

 

[FortuitousFluke]

When is the court date?

No court date yet. Basically you get sent a number of forms which you need to fill in, in my case I'm admitting to £350 of the requested sum as that was the agreed fair usage, I also have to submit a defence form stating my case and providing evidence. Once that's done they set a date.

How much are we talking in monetary value here if you don't mine me asking? At the moment you are back to where you started before your purchased the car and so would they if they take the car back. So they would rather end up losing a court case and pay costs than be even?

£1700, doesn't sound like much but to me and my partner it definitely is. For that price I expect some wear and tear but I definitely don't expect the brakes to fall off.

Can't you also request that the case be heard in your local court too? Just to make things even more awkward for them.

Interesting question, the court they have requested is 2 hours from me, online guidance suggests I can ask that the case be heard at a court nearer to me but I can't see any option for this on the forms. I might see if there is an advice line I can call before I submit everything.

 

[FortuitousFluke]

• Get it moved to your local magistrates, it's very unusual for the court to make the consumer travel.
• Warranty is irrelevant, the question is if they sold the product as described and fit for purpose - they are a business so should be capable of identifying faults such as faulty brakes. Up until 6 months they would need to prove the fault was not present when they sold it (this is unlikely to be provable or even possible).
• IMO fair use is rubbish in this time frame, you owe nothing.
• Get a written report form the garage you took it to originally who identified the faults.

Make sure you attend the court, don't get scared and give in before hand, there is a very high chance they will not even come and you will be win by default. Have you considered a counter claim? I'm sure you have identifiable costs you've sunk into this mess, including your time and inconvenience.

Good response, I'll look into getting it moved to nearer my location. I always considered warranty to be irrelevant, it was a joke when offered as it covered the first 28 days which are covered under right of refusal, my argument has always been in relation to the Consumer Rights Act as you've alluded to. I've got a report from the garage as it formed part of my claim to the credit card company.

They've been using bully boy tactics from the beginning. They claim they responded to the card issuer but the response was conveniently lost. They won't be able to prove this as they never seem to send letters via recorded delivery. My thinking is they knew they would lose if they argued their case and so allowed the refund to occur in the hope that talk about court and debt recovery would scare me in to paying. Not happening.

 

[FortuitousFluke]

Not concrete but this link suggests it may happen automatically when you file a defence?

Thanks for this, I found guidance online suggesting it would be filed near me but the claimant had requested Walsall and there's nothing on the form to request a closer venue so that link is very useful.

 

[FortuitousFluke]

So I'm updating this as I said I would and figured someone might find a use for it eventually.

The story so far:

1. Bought car
2. Car crap
3. Complained to retailer
4. Refused to repair to acceptable level or refund
5. Awarded credit card clawback after retailed didn't challenge
6. Passed to retailers legal team to pursue me for the clawback amount, couldn't find agreement around return of the car and fair usage
7. Retailer lodges with small claims court

Fast forward to now. I responded to all of the court paperwork with my defence, I heard nothing I called the central claim line who said the court wanted the info again (he didn't know why). I sent the info again, and got a letter saying it was transferred to my local court. I chased them up twice having heard nothing. Last week I got a judgement for the claimant stating that I had not lodged a defence by responding to the claim form.......the response mentioned earlier.....which I submitted to them......twice. So I now owe £800 more than I paid for the car (the sum requested by the claimant was the value of the car + fair usage....I know)

I'm now in a tricky situation. I don't owe the money, this has come about due to a court balls up. I've spoken to the claim centre who have requested that the court contact me directly. However this could take 35 days, and if I don't pay in 30 I risk the CCJ becoming permanent, which due to a possible need for credit in the future would be a massive problem for me. I could apply for it to be set aside, which I think I have a good case to do, however given their handling so far I don't have any faith in the court system, and even if I do get a positive response this may be the only route to rectify the situation. The lack of info on the judgement has me concerned that there may be another element to the judgement that might scupper any appeal.

Looks like I might be forced to just pay up in order to save my credit rating. Absolutely baffling that they can screw this up so badly and then legitimately tell me that I could be so long waiting for a response that my credit rating could be nuked as a result.

Long story short don't bother standing up for yourself when dealing with unscrupulous retailers as incompetent beaurocracy will just bugger you in the end.

 

[FortuitousFluke]

What a joke!

Surely you have something as above or even a reference number for the calls you made?

So I have proof of postage for both paperwork submissions including tracking, they have reference of all calls and the advisor last time I called mentioned that there was a note on the system saying something along the lines of "submission received from defendant".

They've not acknowledged that this is through their incompetence, the advisor on the phone (central so not related to the court) has just told me that it appears my submission was received. I suppose the concern I have is that the judgement is just one line saying I've not responded to the claim form, if it turns out there is something beyond that e.g. my submission was invalid or I failed to file the correct documents (I don't believe this was the case but who knows) then there's a risk they could come back and say "actually we meant x", and then I've gone beyond the deadline to pay.

I've got until around the 20th - 25th before I need to pay in order to avoid a CCJ being registered against me on my credit file, just hoping the court respond before then so I can at least make an informed decision. The only other option is seeking further legal advice but that could cost a bomb.

The whole system really is a shambles, the very idea that the it's acceptable for the court to take 35 days to respond to queries when the deadline to pay is 1 month is absolutely sickening.

 

[FortuitousFluke]

Further update for anyone who still gives a fig. I took some advice from friend who is married to a county court judge. Based on that I decided to apply to have the judgement set aside.

I handed the paperwork in personally at the court in november. 4 weeks later they claimed they'd lost it. I posted duplicates by recorded delivery. The duplicates and the original "lost" copy were returned as no payment was enclosed ( I was advised by numerous court officials to enclose a letter asking them to call me to take payment by card as that's now standard procedure). I submitted yet again with a cheque and was issued a hearing date.

So I've had the hearing, the claimants didn't show, the judge seemed surprised by a lot of the crap that has gone on and set aside the judgement. He then said that as the claimant didn't bother to show up he would rather not set another court date and made a subsequent judgement that I should make the car available at my property and the claimants should come and pick it up. No monies owed. All other claims dismissed.

He was quite scathing of the requests put in by the lawyers of the dealership and of some of the actions that had taken place. He also seemed somewhat jaded with the courts admin process.

As the dealership didn't show up they have about a week to challenge the ruling after that I need to contact them to arrange for the car to be picked up at their cost.

This has been an incredibly stressful episode and it just shows how difficult the courts can be for joe bloggs to deal with. I'm mulling over lodging a complaint around the handling of my case by the court system but that's one for another day. No wonder these changers take a punt at small claims though, It's enough to scare anyone off!

Thought I'd update to close off the chapter and as a reference for anyone experiencing similar issues.

 

[FortuitousFluke]

I totally forgot the specifics of the story now a few months have past.

How much are you out of pocket now things are coming to a close on this ordeal now you owe nothing and the charge-back was successful?

So I'm out £255 as I had to pay for this most recent hearing and £100 for legal advice back when they first set the solicitors on me. Maybe another £20 or £30 in postage.

Not the end of the world, would had been a lot less if they had received my original defence as I wouldn't have needed to pay for the hearing but I'm just happy it's nearly over (touch wood).

I'm not even sure they'll bother coming to get the car, but I'll deal with that when I get there.

 

[FortuitousFluke]

Even better than that in terms of them not picking it up. My original plan would have been to charge them and then seek the right to sell the car to recover the cost of storage. However it's actually a condition of the order that they collect so if it doesn't happen I can approach the court for a remedy taking some of the hassle out

Car was only £1700, and ten years old so obviously I was expecting some wear and tear, but the laundry list of faults was mental, and then when the brake pad fell off after he had just told me they looked fine it got a little silly!