cost comparison

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sbi5ar said:
You are comparing a Tower PC and Monitor vs. an All-in-one system...

Not a fair comparison, just saying...
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It was just a post for comparison of performance for £££

The PC posted would look alright as well as it has a lian li case and a 2713 monitor. I know it is not exactly the same as a mac it was just an example, purely for performace for the money.

Just for anyone interested as that was the gist of the original post, I was offering a more affordable system with the same performance as an example. The 680mx is somewhere between a 660 and a 660ti for performance.

AbsenceJam said:
Oh hey, another ****** thread. Nobody learned from the other one?
Look NirK is here! Who will he threaten to knock out this time?
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Calm down please, just an adult discussion here, no insults etc. please. Don't get upset, I am not insulting apple, merely showing other available options for the original poster.
 
NirK said:
It was just a post for comparison of performance for £££

The PC posted would look alright as well as it has a lian li case and a 2713 monitor. I know it is not exactly the same as a mac it was just an example, purely for performace for the money.

Just for anyone interested as that was the gist of the original post, I was offering a more affordable system with the same performance as an example. The 680mx is somewhere between a 660 and a 660ti for performance.
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Which is fair enough. Now compare another AIO to the iMac? Genuine, not having a dig or anything. Just want to see what you find.

You could take this further and compare cost of ownership over a typical period (eg. 4-5 years without upgrades, which matches the target market that purchases AIO machines), and resale value after this time?

Unfortunately the Asus system posted by Neodite doesn't really compare: 1080p display but touchscreen, slower graphics card yet faster processor, etc. It is actually pretty poor value alongside the Dell and the iMac, all things considered. The Dell is really the only system that compares well, but again, the options don't quite match (and now it seems that we can't customise it, according to the website).

I will say that you can build a system that costs significantly less than the iMac but matches/exceeds it in terms of performance as a computer, however that's both stating the obvious, and an argument that we ought not to get in to (considering the last thread). Let's talk about truly matching products that serve virtually identical purposes (eg. form factor, pre-built, similar component options).

While it is inevitable that this thread will go down the drain like the other one (we've already had several silly posts), it'd be nice if this one can stay civilised for the page or two that it does live :D
 
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For a strictly AIO computer if you simply must have an AIO then the apple seems the best in terms of specs... However the upgrade prices and final price does seem like a lot to me when you can get a faster desktop PC for less than 60% of the price...

Personally I do not really see the point of an AIO computer? You need a laptop for portability but what is wrong with a monitor and a box under the desk? Not sure what the point of an AIO is really... Ah well "each to their own" as they say. What exactly is the point of an AIO desktop PC? Seems like the worst of both worlds to me... Laptop performance and prices with desktop portability (eg. none) lol.
 
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Isn't this an entirely superfluous conversation in general though? Seriously - if you care about absolute value for money in price/performance terms then it's unusual a Mac will ever come out better in those comparisons (yes, before the fanboys start, a part of that is because any such comparison misses some of the unquantifiable value of the form factor, integration etc).

Even if it did, anybody who was rationally choosing on value alone would be convinced a self build PC was better by the potential reuse value of components like the case and monitor down the road (if they were really being rational) - though I suppose the increased resale value on a Mac might counter that.

Fact is though, no matter how much people go on about better performance and value, few people have any concept of TCO when it comes to personal computers and nobody is all that rational about their choices because it's about user experience. For instance how much is an SSD worth before it's good value? It's only x% faster than a regular disk so that bit is easy to work out but for me an SSD was worth the premium the moment it came out because it improved by user experience far more than that figure of x% can show. I think that's a very difficult thing to put an absolute value on because of that..

The end reason all these comparisons is pointless is because the iMac and every other Apple product is absolutely a premium product. If you're worrying about the value for money or getting a level of performance for a price then your already looking at the wrong product. Doesn't make it a bad product, the world is full of premium products...

Finally, the value of the OS is debated far too much, but it's valid. Can you really compare anything running OSX and something running Windows 8? I don't say that from the point of view of which is better, merely they're quite different and if you need one then the other won't do you much good and if your uses are sufficiently agnostic you can use either then perhaps you don't need a £2000 computer (not to say you shouldn't buy one but if you do then perhaps value doesn't need to be your number 1 criteria).
 
I suppose it is entirely up to the buyer to decide if the apple features are worth the price premium... Personally I think that apple products are alright but they are too much for what they are and some of the upgrade options and prices are pretty questionable... Other people obviously think differently and seem to look at apple in an almost religious manner! It is quite interesting to see how cheap you can get the same or better performance from a custom PC though.

I still think an AIO desktop computer is monumentally pointless though, you are limited to laptop parts yet it still takes up the same footprint on your desk.
 
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NirK said:
For a strictly AIO computer if you simply must have an AIO then the apple seems the best in terms of specs... However the upgrade prices and final price does seem like a lot to me when you can get a faster desktop PC for less than 60% of the price...

Personally I do not really see the point of an AIO computer? You need a laptop for portability but what is wrong with a monitor and a box under the desk? Not sure what the point of an AIO is really... Ah well "each to their own" as they say. What exactly is the point of an AIO desktop PC? Seems like the worst of both worlds to me... Laptop performance with desktop portability lol.
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Not having a go, but honestly, if you just said that in the last thread you wouldn't have received the response that you did!

The only laptop components used in such AIO machines are usually the graphics cards and memory modules. You still get desktop components, otherwise (aside from the mechanical hard drives in the 2012 iMac, but then again the performance difference is minimal). You do get genuine desktop performance, and while you only have mobile GPUs and you do pay a premium, you ultimately get performance that is similar to that of a typical tower machine.

Advantages? Aside from the usual (cables, legroom, ease of setup, footprint, aesthetics, ease of use, desk space), there aren't many (quietness is probably another, the iMac is definitely quieter than the majority of tower machines). However, it depends on how much you value those attributes - the average consumer is going to care about these more than the average geek. Keep in mind that the footprint of the current iMac is comparable to, if not slightly smaller than the majority of 27" monitors.

EDIT: bigredshark - I agree. Ultimately it comes down to the value that one attributes to the product. The comparisons made in the previous thread were based all on the numbers, which does play a part to an extent. My experiences with the iMac were that you pay a premium for the form factor, but aside from this, you don't really pay said "Apple tax" over competing offerings.
 
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bigredshark said:
Isn't this an entirely superfluous conversation in general though? Seriously - if you care about absolute value for money in price/performance terms then it's unusual a Mac will ever come out better in those comparisons (yes, before the fanboys start, a part of that is because any such comparison misses some of the unquantifiable value of the form factor, integration etc).

Even if it did, anybody who was rationally choosing on value alone would be convinced a self build PC was better by the potential reuse value of components like the case and monitor down the road (if they were really being rational) - though I suppose the increased resale value on a Mac might counter that.

Fact is though, no matter how much people go on about better performance and value, few people have any concept of TCO when it comes to personal computers and nobody is all that rational about their choices because it's about user experience. For instance how much is an SSD worth before it's good value? It's only x% faster than a regular disk so that bit is easy to work out but for me an SSD was worth the premium the moment it came out because it improved by user experience far more than that figure of x% can show. I think that's a very difficult thing to put an absolute value on because of that..

The end reason all these comparisons is pointless is because the iMac and every other Apple product is absolutely a premium product. If you're worrying about the value for money or getting a level of performance for a price then your already looking at the wrong product. Doesn't make it a bad product, the world is full of premium products...

Finally, the value of the OS is debated far too much, but it's valid. Can you really compare anything running OSX and something running Windows 8? I don't say that from the point of view of which is better, merely they're quite different and if you need one then the other won't do you much good and if your uses are sufficiently agnostic you can use either then perhaps you don't need a £2000 computer (not to say you shouldn't buy one but if you do then perhaps value doesn't need to be your number 1 criteria).
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Well said.
 
NirK said:
I suppose it is entirely up to the buyer to decide if the apple features are worth the price premium... Personally I think that apple products are alright but they are too much for what they are and some of the upgrade options and prices are pretty questionable... Other people obviously think differently and seem to look at apple in an almost religious manner! It is quite interesting to see how cheap you can get the same or better performance from a custom PC though.
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It is indeed up to the buyer and obviously somebody will disagree whatever you do.

Something that some of the 'apple are terrible value' brigade could do with bearing in mind is that a large number of people representing a very wide spectrum of users disagree so it's worth remembering it's just a personal opinion. Repeating it won't help prove it and won't convince anybody.

The apple fans could keep in mind that some people do care about the value more and don't see the benefits as great enough and for people who care about that for whatever reason they will not be convinced by repetition of the facts either.

I think the 'how cheap can I get an equivalent spec to an iMac?' is a fairly niche and boring question personally. I mean - who cares? If a PC does what somebody needs, they're happy with it because it works for them presumably not because they're smug that they paid less for it than someone else (I hope, life's too short for that surely?). If a Mac works for somebody then they likely don't care that they could have the same spec for less money.

It's almost entirely 50:50 - Buy what you like and use it, find something better to do than criticise other peoples choices. It's their choice at the end of the day and there's a world of more interesting things to do.
 
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TCO is key here. Assuming you keep the machine for, say 3 years, I'd like to see how much the PC equivalent (aio or separates) is worth compared to the iMac.

For me though I don't buy on price. I want OSX on a really nice looking machine that won't look crap in my dining room and I can't get that in PC form for any price.
 
Its horses for courses. We have the cheapest new Mac Mini with 8GB of RAM I installed under the HDTV as a media machine. It works very well for all our audio / visual needs and is very easy to use.

We also have a tower PC I built from components I use as an admin / gaming machine in my office upstairs. I built this myself to get the spec I wanted.

For me both are value for money for different reasons which is the point.

Would I use a 27" IMac ?
Yes quite happily, they are nice bits of kit.

Would I buy one ?
No, they are far too expensive to justify for my needs.
 
I wouldnt say they are "terrible value" but I would say that they certainly use some questionable pricing and marketing strategies, especially in the upgrades which can safely be called "overpriced" ...

What irritates me a bit is when people cannot admit that apple do anything wrong as if they are some sort of holy entity with a halo of light above the main office. There are quite a few articles online about how apple has become almost a religous entity to some people lol. I think these "apple evangelists" as I have now termed them often display "apple fanboy selectivism" which often transcends the realms of objective thought and logic.

"According to neurological research cited by the BBC on their "Secrets of the Superbrands" documentary, the response from the brain of an Apple enthusiast when viewing the brand-related symbols and imagery is similar to the one of a religious devotee when exposed to religious symbols and images"
 
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^ Much in the same way I've never understood the mindless hate they get from some people, especially as those people are so keen to obsess over them. Like bigredshark says, there are better things to do.

I think it's mostly because Apple's marketing is so strong that it makes certain people feel inferior if they own an alternative/can't justify the cost/etc.
 
Depends on the model really. If we want to talk about things that are worthless in 2 years, look no further than the original iPad. That's been a terrible value purchase for me.
 
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