Cowboy Warning: Avoid DomainExpress like the plague.

Heofz

Heofz

Heofz

Soldato
Joined
20 Oct 2002
Posts
3,469
Location
London, UK
If you happen to remember me from past events (linky 1, linky 2, and there have been others), you may recall that I don't take **** from any company who tries it on with me as their customer.

I've taken on EA, Western Digital, BFG, 2 large ocuk competitors, and came out with the result I wanted in all cases. Some involved small claims court, some involved sheer determination with the companies. Ultimately, persistance is key. I am hoping this case will be no different.

The name of today's culprit is DomainExpress.co.uk, who are also trading under the parent company Freezone.co.uk
I hope to get my "transfer fee" money back from them, not because I need it, but out of principle.

These guys are so awful on so many levels, it beggars belief.

  • Firstly, I'm sure they changed their terms of service after I bought 4 '.CO' domains with them (though sadly I can't prove it), so that you get charged a £10 fee for each domain you transfer away from them (I wanted to move because of the reasons below, also the new domain registar is considerably cheaper).
  • Their domain control panel sucks bigtime. It gives error messages even when I just try to change the name servers for my domain.
  • They are basically a handful of guys in a family (all with the same last name, "Bukhari") who are running this business from their little "office" in Kingston-upon-Thames.
  • They claim to have "24/7 customer chat support", but it closes during the weekends. They also like to use various fake english looking names to give customers the impression they have a big team, but it's actually just one guy answering your chat messages.
  • They violated ICANN policy by refusing to provide me with my EPP authorization codes (like your PAC code for your mobile if you want to move your number to a different network) until I paid them their "transfer out fee". ICANN specifically forbids domain registrar companies from refusing to send EPP codes to the owners of the domain, as the EPP code is property that belongs to the owners themselves. It's the equivalent to some guy standing on your porch, not allowing you into your own house unless you give him money.
  • When I initially asked for my EPP codes, they kept trying to convince me to instead bring in my 15 other domains to them, which would cost me an extra £200, but I apparently "save money" if I buy 4 (YES FOUR) separate "Ultimate web hosting" packages from them. I told them many times I already had a good web host (Vidahost, they are awesome btw) and wasn't interested. And simple arithmetic showed that this would not save me money at all.
Anyhoo, I have included some entertaining chat sessions with these clowns, feel free to read them at your leisure:

Chat Session 1
Chat Session 2 (I knew they were ripping me off but I just wanted the domains out of their system as I did not trust them anymore)
Chat Session 3 (this is the ticket I'm referring to)
Chat Session 4 (they kept closing the chat down on me until I logged in under a different email address)
Chat Session 5 (my favourite, towards the end I was laughing hard)


I know I probably sound like a douche in a bunch of these conversations, but it's fairly obvious when the guy on the other side is being a cheeky ****. So I feel I acted appropriately :p.
 
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tbh I think you are being an ass, there's no legal requirement for them to do **** and they certainly aren't governed by mobile phone laws. the bigger registrars may have some automated process in place, because they have to deal with it constantly - but a smaller company won't have them - and it's a whole bunch of paperwork to transfer a domain, around 30 minutes work actually. The T&C's said pay £10 for that work which IMO is a reasonable fee, you should negotiate the £10 fee to transfer all remembering that they have little incentive to help an ex customer and it's a bunch of paperwork for them.

Edit: I wouldn't use them after your experiences tho.
 
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I can definitely see both sides to this argument. Having worked in a four man web design company I can testify that the little things do add up.

Saying that, my hatred for this kind of transfer fee has me gunning for Heofz! :)

If I recall correctly the only step in the process for DomainExpress.co.uk to transfer the domain will be to forward the email with the EPP code that they should have received. Or do they have to request it and then forward it? Can't remember... oh well.

Anyway, this obviously doesn't take into account the work on DomainExpress.co.uk's side to update their accounts and client records etc. However little that work may be this is no doubt what they are charging for.

Heofz's main point of contention is that ICANN clearly states that the EPP code cannot be withheld from the domain owner.

My understanding of this is that whether it's a reasonable fee doesn't matter. If Heofz could not afford to pay the fee (even if it was just £1) then they could not withhold that information.

Think this hit's a nerve with me right now because as of this very second in time I could not afford the £40 transfer fee they were requesting.
 
sldsmkd said:
it's a whole bunch of paperwork to transfer a domain, around 30 minutes work actually.
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No it's not at all, it's a very simple process from the registrar's perspective.

I've always seen a transfer out fee as almost spitting on someone as they leave - it precludes all possibility of them ever returning. UK2 do this as well (and they're about the 4th largest registrar in the UK).
 
To be fair, it's been a long time since i've done this. It used to involve faxes going all over the place. Still if it's in the T&C's of the contract you signed to then I don't see what you can do - you signed the contract - you are bound to it. The only recourse you have is to inform ICANN that the registrar is in breach of contract.
 
As I paid this fee via Paypal, I am claiming there first via an escalated dispute, citing my reasons. They have already responded, and Paypal are now reviewing the case.

In the meantime I have sent a message to ICANN to see where I stand in their view.

As sldsmkd said, their Terms of Usage does mention there is a transfer out fee. However, an interesting part of that whole page is the last paragraph:

The Client and Domain Express both agree that a court may strike out or override any part of these terms and conditions if it considers them to be illegal, unenforceable or unfair and in such cases enforce only the terms and conditions as if the offending clause or clauses had never been contained in them.
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I guess what it boils down to is, can the circumstances of what I am claiming (i.e. a violation of ICANN policy) be grounds for a court striking out the "validity" of this fee charged for my domains?
 
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I never use hosts that charge to transfer out and yes it is legal to do so. Really its on you to read the terms you agreed to when you registered the domains in the first place.

So unfortunately they have you over a barrel unless it was UK domains then you could initiate the transfer with Nominet however they would still charge you but at least the shoddy hosting company wouldn't receive a penny.
 
Heofz said:
As I paid this fee via Paypal, I am claiming there first via an escalated dispute, citing my reasons. They have already responded, and Paypal are now reviewing the case.

In the meantime I have sent a message to ICANN to see where I stand in their view.

As sldsmkd said, their Terms of Usage does mention there is a transfer out fee. However, an interesting part of that whole page is the last paragraph:

I guess what it boils down to is, can the circumstances of what I am claiming (i.e. a violation of ICANN policy) be grounds for a court striking out the "validity" of this fee charged for my domains?
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It's complicated, you'd have to take it to the small claims court - which would cost you far more than £40 in terms of time and effort; and it would require the small claims court to agree with you. I'd suspect the court would find in favour of the Registrar to be honest as you entered into a contract with them - and ICANN is not a UK organisation - and the dispute is not directly related to the contract between ICANN and the Registrar.

Disputes like this are best resolved by negotiation, you should have counter offered a £10 fee to transfer all of the domains.
 
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sldsmkd said:
tbh I think you are being an ass
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I agree.

An Admin fee is an Admin fee, whether the task takes 30 seconds or 30 minutes. Simple.

You can even get charged an admin fee if you request information under the freedom of information act.

Just because you're legally entitled to that information, doesn't mean they have find and give it to you for free. :)
 
The only time I have ever had a problem getting my epp code was when I used a hosting service that gave you a free domain, this was a long long time ago and it is a lesson learned. The big worry is that both domain express and freezone look quite professional, I wonder how many others have suffered the same at the hands of these muppets.
 
asim18 said:
I agree.

An Admin fee is an Admin fee, whether the task takes 30 seconds or 30 minutes. Simple.

You can even get charged an admin fee if you request information under the freedom of information act.

Just because you're legally entitled to that information, doesn't mean they have find and give it to you for free. :)
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The FIA explicitly states that a reasonable data processing fee may be levied on an FIA request.

ICANN policy, on the other hand, explicitly states the precise and exact circumstances in which a company may withhold an EPP code, and not paying a "leaving us fine" isn't one of them.

you can write whatever contract clauses you like, and even if your poor customer signs them, your contract cannot supersede the policies that govern it.
In this case, that's the ICANN policy, and in other cases it could be the UK law.
For example, you could write a contract saying that you have the right to stab the contractee in the face with a biro every time they blink, but even if they sign it you still can't stab them in the face.

contract law isn't anywhere nearly as clear-cut as some of you are making out. Heofz is 100% in the right here.
 
lol, if I was them I would give you the refund just to shut you up :D

By the way, your EA link doesn't work, any chance you have a copy about? would be interested to read.
 
Aod said:
The FIA explicitly states that a reasonable data processing fee may be levied on an FIA request.

ICANN policy, on the other hand, explicitly states the precise and exact circumstances in which a company may withhold an EPP code, and not paying a "leaving us fine" isn't one of them.
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Was going to post this when I was reading the thread on the train but phone was giving me jip.

I don't think anyone argues you can't charge admin fees for work that has been done. However, to me, in this circumstance, given the policies outlined by ICANN, the process should have been that they release the EPP code, allowing the transfer, then billed for the "work".

If it had been carried out this way then DomainExpress would be covered and Heofz wouldn't have a say on the matter - other than to dispute the high cost.

However, as it stands the process was not carried out this way and policies were broken. What compensation Heofz is entitled to is up for debate.
 
I think they sound like a right tin pot company and I would imagine if they received a letter from a solicitor or court papers they would cough up straight away.
 
Heofz said:
Here you go :)

http://forums.electronicarts.co.uk/...digital-copy-crysis-physical-retail-copy.html
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After reading all of that you become very abusive but I can understand why you become like that. At the end of the day the people who are responding to your questions are just email support and most of them don't deserve to be treated bad.

Just remember this, reverse the actions and you put yourself in their shoes. The email reps can only do so much since they are first line and have to take orders from above not what you tell them they should be doing.
 
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