Creating a fantasy world from scratch.

Droolinggimp · 16 Sep 2022 at 18:25

This is probably the best forum to ask this as it can fall under Books and TV Movies. However I am not thinking of writing a book because I struggle to write forum posts sometimes, hey-ho.

This thread became because of the arguments and discussion in the Rings of Power thread. People crying over Lore that is changed, added, excluded etc. most if not all people who are familiar with Tolkiens work know of his vast lore for Middle Earth and beyond. Some complete, some incomplete. Not wanting to make this into a Tolkien discussion, but I would like to hear thoughts on creating a new world, complete with history, language, politics etc.

Have any of you thought about doing something like this at all. It has crossed my mid a few times, I am no writer but I do have a good creative mind in my opinion.

Would anyone be interested in giving this a go? Not to make a story, but to create a world where any story could happen. A bit like a game engine. Here are the rules, physics and files you need, now go make a game (yes a dumbed down explanation).

It is something I have tried a few times but I think I started it wrong, like, starting the world building during an age instead of from the very beginning.

Anyone fancy giving this a go? Even if just to brainstorm for a bit.

wolfie138 · 16 Sep 2022 at 21:48

writing is one of my hobbies, most of my screenplays are based in and around my own city and the characters in one story are sometimes related to others in another story. i scribble too so i've got design for the cop car liveries and police badges, city emblem and other stuff, working on a map in Blender and PShop. it's fun, if that's the sort of thing you're into.

Darujhistan · 17 Sep 2022 at 01:16

Droolinggimp said:
This is probably the best forum to ask this as it can fall under Books and TV Movies. However I am not thinking of writing a book because I struggle to write forum posts sometimes, hey-ho.

This thread became because of the arguments and discussion in the Rings of Power thread. People crying over Lore that is changed, added, excluded etc. most if not all people who are familiar with Tolkiens work know of his vast lore for Middle Earth and beyond. Some complete, some incomplete. Not wanting to make this into a Tolkien discussion, but I would like to hear thoughts on creating a new world, complete with history, language, politics etc.

Have any of you thought about doing something like this at all. It has crossed my mid a few times, I am no writer but I do have a good creative mind in my opinion.

Would anyone be interested in giving this a go? Not to make a story, but to create a world where any story could happen. A bit like a game engine. Here are the rules, physics and files you need, now go make a game (yes a dumbed down explanation).

It is something I have tried a few times but I think I started it wrong, like, starting the world building during an age instead of from the very beginning.

Anyone fancy giving this a go? Even if just to brainstorm for a bit.

There's a guy on YT who makes videos on this very topic, I haven't watched them, but the gist is making your World believable, in terms of geography for sure, and i'm sure he tackles other subjects as well.

Rroff · 17 Sep 2022 at 02:33

Two things you can do to help build it up - generalise then backfill and writing short stories within that world and flesh out from there.

Droolinggimp · 17 Sep 2022 at 07:44

Rroff said:
Two things you can do to help build it up - generalise then backfill and writing short stories within that world and flesh out from there.

I will assume these short stories will be fine if they dont go into great depth as long as they explain something that happened, eg, I wont need to go into detail like, say, Tolkien did.

example, not using the formatting i have here.
At the beginning of the creation age, three civilisations, who were living far away from each other in new earth.

civ 1 were focussed on using the natural resources of the earth and were peaceful
- go into a little detail about what they did, politics faith etc
civ 2 were .....
- politics etc....
civ 3 were .....
- etc

Civ one started to travel the world and happen upon civ three. At first it was friendly and helping each other out, however civ three notice a weakness with civ one. They wanted to exploit that weakness. 3 wars happened between them.

war one
- battle one
- battel two
war two
- battle 1
- etc

So each back story flows to another story explaining what happens, I guess it ends up being like appendices.

Mercenary Keyboard Warrior · 17 Sep 2022 at 08:24

Interesting I know 2 groups who set out to write RPGs so related to what you are doing.
Both struggled with just the depth of stuff you need to do to create a rich world.

I remember back to my younger days playing MERP. When you bought a new Campaign (think that was the term for the regions as opposed to adventures etc) they had large sections on flora and fauna (plants and animals) for example
You need to add climate, weather patterns, mountains, seas, lakes, woods etc to match the previously mentioned things.
So you get the richness, but they need to stack, and then all those things should influence the character and clothing etc of the people.

Begbie · 17 Sep 2022 at 08:32

Some of the best examples of insane world building is 40k, the rules and depth is insane.

It must be so difficult, creating a world where rules are set and remembering them all across the vastness so none of them get broken. Feels impossible to me - especially when multiple people are involved or when your desperate to sell it and have made a scene/wrote a book that has broken them but would cost a lot to fix.

Probably why Disney can't manage it anymore

Semple · 17 Sep 2022 at 09:17

Begbie said:
Some of the best examples of insane world building is 40k, the rules and depth is insane.

It must be so difficult, creating a world where rules are set and remembering them all across the vastness so none of them get broken. Feels impossible to me - especially when multiple people are involved or when your desperate to sell it and have made a scene/wrote a book that has broken them but would cost a lot to fix.

Probably why Disney can't manage it anymore

Yeah I've often wondered how JK Rowling managed to tie up the whole HP story. She would never have envisioned writing 7 books worth of content. Also what you write in the first book has future consequences. Personalities, relationships, deaths etc can't really be undone after you've published the first book. It's almost as if you have to write the book series backwards.

Shamikebab · 17 Sep 2022 at 09:22

Well HP was easy, there is no consistency and huge plot holes if you consider any of the deus ex machinas from any of the stories impacting any of the others.

40k is good in that it is a big world and very long running but it massively plunders from everything and there are some problems if you examine it in detail.

wolfie138 · 17 Sep 2022 at 12:00

it's extremely easy to fall into the "make **** up cos it's cool" mode, look at star wars as a prime example. fans just desperately contort themselves to try and make something make sense rather than admit the writers don't give a **** about them or established histories. what you need to do is give the details of what's pertinent to what you're doing now, anything else is unnecessary and can hamstring you if you come up w/ a better idea later. Eg, you could mention the wars, but not the specific battles. only give what details are needed, otherwise you risk overloading the reader and losing them.

Mr Badger · 18 Sep 2022 at 13:40

Seems to me that a robust approach might be to create a sort of pyramid of rules and then refer back and follow/add/amend as you progress with creating the world/story.

At the narrow end are basic fundamentals (Is it set on Earth? How long are the days and seasons? Is magic allowed?) and then it branches out as you fill in the details (Civilisation 1 is a small democracy and lives in a desert, Civilisation 2 is a large empire that has slavery) and so on. Then when you add characters and events you can check back to see whether things hang together, or you need to tweak the rules or make changes to your plot development to keep the internal logic working.

Rroff · 19 Sep 2022 at 10:50

Mr Badger said:
Seems to me that a robust approach might be to create a sort of pyramid of rules and then refer back and follow/add/amend as you progress with creating the world/story.

At the narrow end are basic fundamentals (Is it set on Earth? How long are the days and seasons? Is magic allowed?) and then it branches out as you fill in the details (Civilisation 1 is a small democracy and lives in a desert, Civilisation 2 is a large empire that has slavery) and so on. Then when you add characters and events you can check back to see whether things hang together, or you need to tweak the rules or make changes to your plot development to keep the internal logic working.

What really sets the good stuff apart is motivation of characters and entities - why does civilisation 2 have slavery?

Mr Badger · 19 Sep 2022 at 16:10

Rroff said:
What really sets the good stuff apart is motivation of characters and entities - why does civilisation 2 have slavery?

The real reason for that is revealed at the end of book 2.

OspreyO · 19 Sep 2022 at 16:39

Mr Badger said:
The real reason for that is revealed at the end of book 2.

If get you that far, you can push it out a few more books.

OspreyO · 19 Sep 2022 at 16:45

wolfie138 said:
it's extremely easy to fall into the "make **** up cos it's cool" mode, look at star wars as a prime example. fans just desperately contort themselves to try and make something make sense rather than admit the writers don't give a **** about them or established histories. what you need to do is give the details of what's pertinent to what you're doing now, anything else is unnecessary and can hamstring you if you come up w/ a better idea later. Eg, you could mention the wars, but not the specific battles. only give what details are needed, otherwise you risk overloading the reader and losing them.

I would say "make up stuff" because its cool didn't happen to Star Wars as they didn't know what cool is. They were just bad.

But the number one failure of fantasy stories is to over reach. Too many characters, too complex storyline of backstory. All you need is enough storyline and backstory for the character to make sense. Doesn't need to be complex, just needs to be credible and something people can identify with. Also an emotional connection with the character. Positive or negative. Worst is if no one cares.

OspreyO · 19 Sep 2022 at 16:50

Semple said:
Yeah I've often wondered how JK Rowling managed to tie up the whole HP story. She would never have envisioned writing 7 books worth of content. Also what you write in the first book has future consequences. Personalities, relationships, deaths etc can't really be undone after you've published the first book. It's almost as if you have to write the book series backwards.

I think often there is a index of sorts created to check against that lists characters but also the rules of the world.

If someone breaks this, the story usually ties itself up in knots with increasingly convoluted explanations until it makes no sense, and you've destroyed the anything thats gone before.

OspreyO · 19 Sep 2022 at 16:52

Droolinggimp said:
This is probably the best forum to ask this as it can fall under Books and TV Movies. However I am not thinking of writing a book because I struggle to write forum posts sometimes, hey-ho.

This thread became because of the arguments and discussion in the Rings of Power thread. People crying over Lore that is changed, added, excluded etc. most if not all people who are familiar with Tolkiens work know of his vast lore for Middle Earth and beyond. Some complete, some incomplete. Not wanting to make this into a Tolkien discussion, but I would like to hear thoughts on creating a new world, complete with history, language, politics etc.

Have any of you thought about doing something like this at all. It has crossed my mid a few times, I am no writer but I do have a good creative mind in my opinion.

Would anyone be interested in giving this a go? Not to make a story, but to create a world where any story could happen. A bit like a game engine. Here are the rules, physics and files you need, now go make a game (yes a dumbed down explanation).

It is something I have tried a few times but I think I started it wrong, like, starting the world building during an age instead of from the very beginning.

Anyone fancy giving this a go? Even if just to brainstorm for a bit.

The reason people complain is because it breaks the rules of the world, which in turn makes the story to that point nonsense.

Throrik · 20 Sep 2022 at 12:36

Semple said:
Yeah I've often wondered how JK Rowling managed to tie up the whole HP story. She would never have envisioned writing 7 books worth of content. Also what you write in the first book has future consequences. Personalities, relationships, deaths etc can't really be undone after you've published the first book. It's almost as if you have to write the book series backwards.

I mean JK Rowlings universe is absolutely riddled with gigantic plot holes, so I don't think she did really tie up the whole story. So many people called the 6th book the Half Baked Plot for a reason.

OspreyO · 20 Sep 2022 at 12:41

Never though Harry Potter was that well written. But its fantastic world, very enjoyable and many like Fantasy worlds its more about the overall idea and empathy with the characters than being perfectly written. None are perfect.

wolfie138 · 20 Sep 2022 at 21:26

when you create a TV show you generally create a "bible". Virtually everything should be in that, bios of the main characters etc, and the blueprint to the world is set out, which prevents things going off-track. again, it depends on your imagination and planned scope. if you don't introduce civilization 2 then you can add that part later, but the bible should include the pertinent details needed for book 1.
w/ the JKR example above, she was the only person writing all the stuff so probably knew far better what would work and what could be developed - contrast that w/ Game of Thrones where people who knew ****-all took over and the last season(s) turned into a ****pile of contradictory nonsense. And the star wars "wow, she's his sister now!" "wow he's luke father now!" "wow the force is actually blood parasites now!" garbage.